The mighty God

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Hi MoJo
Thank you for the welcome.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2051

Apoc,

Hi, Very Happy

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2051

Mojo,

Hi, Very Happy

Just because similar phrasing is used between 2 scriptures is no clear reason to believe 1 person is the other. Both Jesus and king Nebuchadnezzer are called "King of kings".

John 5:43 I have come in the name of my Father,

When Jesus does come he does so in the name of his Father. That doesn't make him Jehovah, but with authority from Jehovah.

Again you seem to suggest Jehovah is Jesus. In the following, we have the prophesy and the fulfillment in the scriptures.
Who is Jehovah speaking to in vs 44:
Matt 23:42 “What do YOU think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’?

Are you familiar with how this was fulfilled?

Take care. Very Happy

_________________
Agape,
TBax

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2051

Apoc,

Hi, Very Happy

MoJo · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:13 am Post subject:

MoJo · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:21 am Post subject:

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Hi MoJo
Have you looked at the first verse of Is.7 for me. What do you think now? Wink

Well I'm not saying that one shouldn't try and connect dots occasionally, provided they are dots not just specks, I merely said that there was no clear verse in 66 books of the "I am a man who" "the man Christ Jesus" "Jesus of Nazareth, a man" etc. variety of clear, which says that Jesus was/is God.

The pursuit of connecting the dots should be reserved for the little things, such as whether the sinful woman, Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany are all the same person (I think they are, but proving it requires a few dots to be connected). Proving that Jesus is the coeternal, cosubstantial, coequal Creator YHWH, requires a little better than "dots".

For example, the "dot" that Is.9:6 is meant to represent, one of the strongest darkest ink dots in the OT for Trinitarians, looks decidedly specky when this list of caveats is brought to bear on it:

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2051

Mojo,

Hi, Very Happy

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Alpha and Omega here is God the Father. Just because God can "come" and Jesus can "come" that doesn't make them both God.

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

If I may pop in:

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

TBax, in order to make this exchange most productive, I was wondering if you could do me a favor and address each and every instance (except for 1:1) of John's usage of theos without the defintie article. Tell me if God almighty is or is not in view, ok?

Here they are again:

Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Jhn 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Jhn 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Jhn 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Thanks, TBax.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2051

Apoc,

Hi, Very Happy

No I will not address each and every instance you provided. Rolling Eyes

I will admit theos alone can be translated God when it fits, like in those instances. Theos alone can also be translated "a god" when it fits as well, like at John 1:1 or John 10:30-36(see below).
The fact is "a god" is a proper rendering at John 1:1 and fits in harmony with the rest of the Bible.
"The Word was God" is a possible proper rendering but doesn't fit in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

You are missing the point. There is a descrepency as to how this can be translated. Are you saying every time theos is used without the definite article it is refering to God Almighty?

John 10:33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

Here, in Green, "theos" is used without the definite article.
The Blue "theos" is used with the definite article.

Are you saying all these instances should be saying "God", as in God Almighty.

Jesus' point in that scripture is that since these imperfect men can be called gods then certainly God's own Son can be a god. Smile

Did Jesus think he was God?
John 17:3 In prayer to his Father "3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. "

Did the apostles think Jesus was God?
This is what the apostles believed 1 Cor 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Apoc, if you are going to harp on your understanding of greek you are going to miss the point. The scriptures make it clear.

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Hi apocatastasis and TBax
You probably know this, but the definite article ("the"/"ho"etc) doesn't work the same in Greek in English. And also no amount of grammatical probing is going to shed as much light on John1:1-3 as comparison with the Logos and Arche in Luke 1:2 etc.

By the way.. seeing this thread is/was about Is.9:6, the Hebrew definite article doesn't work as English (or Greek) either. Wink

S