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StElsewhere
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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: | | Let us re-identify this thread as "Mark of the Beast in Revelations" then I could go on my way and ignore it. |
Since the Mark of the Beast is part of the "EverLasting Gospel"( Revelation , Chapter 14)......can you afford to ignore it ? |
Whatever you may or may not believe about what the mark will be...stay away from the Real ID card and chips too!  |
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Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | | Who do the just ,the elect,the ones raised in the first resurrection reign over during the thousand years? |
A great question, knuckle. And it would seem, one that has gone unanswered in this thread.
Premillenialists teach that the earth will be torched in a great nuclear war at the end of the tribulation, just before the beginning of the millenial reign. And furthermore, they teach that Jesus Himself will come to earth at the climax of this war, with His armies on white horses, and personally kill perhaps millions (the armies of the Antichrist presumeably) Himself! Of course, they get that from Rev 19.
I've heard some prophecy "experts" say there will be no surviving unbelievers of the war at the end of the tribulation! The meek inherit the earth and the wicked are not to be found!
Yet Rev 20 says those who were beheaded for the witness of Christ live and reign with Him for 1000 years. Who then do they reign over?
As brother Surfer told us earlier in this thread, apparently Adventist belief is that the saints will not even be on earth during the millenial reign. In this they differ from mainstream premillenialists, who teach Jesus will personally reign from earthly Jerusalem, with the saints as deputies under Him, over the nations of sinners, who they also say did not survive the last great war.
But whether reigning from heaven or on earth, I have never heard a sensible explanation of who it is the saints reign over, other than those who theorize that a few sinners may survive the last great war. But it hardly sounds like a glorious millenial reign, ruling over a few scattered survivors of nuclear war, does it? They go on to claim that there will be a great population explosion during the millenium, because at the end of that time, the REvelation predicts that armies so great they are like the sand of the seashore in multitude will come against Jerusalem, presumeably to dethrone Jesus Himself.
Yet these same folks are the ones who teach that the millenium will be a time of righteousness, with sin not even being allowed, or punished instantly, because Jesus will be here personally and won't permit it.
 Premillenialism, and variants therof, don't add up.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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MoJo
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3314
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | But whether reigning from heaven or on earth, I have never heard a sensible explanation of who it is the saints reign over, other than those who theorize that a few sinners may survive the last great war. |
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
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I've heard some prophecy "experts" say there will be no surviving unbelievers of the war at the end of the tribulation! The meek inherit the earth and the wicked are not to be found! (pardon I haven't figured out how to use partial quotes yet...I'm a bit slow on the uptake) (' ')
Yet Rev 20 says those who were beheaded for the witness of Christ live and reign with Him for 1000 years. Who then do they reign over?
Hi there!
Well I know it is hard to conceptualize but even with all the preaching of the Gospel around the wold...there will still be those who never heard of Jesus to reject Him. When Christ returns...there will only be a comparatively few number of people left after the genocide of the anticChrist ...then the destruction of all who took the Mark of the Beast...There will be few left...But Praise the LORD the Saints of God will go about refurbishing and rebuilding the world...and with "mans" ability procreate imagine how many people will be born in the first year...two then five...man will repopulate this planet and in the spanse of 1000 years...the WOG says:
Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
In a 1000 years...there will be a fully populated world ...again... and sin will again wax great...those who satan will convert ...will not remember the preceding holocaust a 1000 years earlier...and will be beguiled by satan to turn against the ruling Jesus' Theocracy...and revolt! |
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Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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A premillenialist speaks up!
Hi St Elsewhere.
So your theory depends on a tremendous repopulation by the survivors of Armageddon. Big families will be all the rage during the millenium!
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | A premillenialist speaks up!
Hi St Elsewhere.
So your theory depends on a tremendous repopulation by the survivors of Armageddon. Big families will be all the rage during the millenium! |
Very few will survive the Armageddon battle region...which will be in the middle east...There will be people in distant pockets throughout the world...and then life begins again under Jesus' Theocratic rule! |
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Silver Surfer
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Joined: 12 Jul 2003
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Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | In a 1000 years...there will be a fully populated world ...again... and sin will again wax great...those who satan will convert ...will not remember the preceding holocaust a 1000 years earlier...and will be beguiled by satan to turn against the ruling Jesus' Theocracy...and revolt! 8-) |
There is much truth in what you say......BUT, remember that their fate has already been sealed, as the Judgment Day of God was finished some 1000 years before.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: |
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How interesting.
From the moment the war of Armageddon is over and the millenial reign begins, everyone will know exactly how long it will be until the earth is destroyed completely. How would you feel if you knew?
They will have 1000 years to enjoy paradise, and then... everything goes up in flames.
What will happen in the last say... 10 or 20 years before the end? Will people stop bothering to have kids, knowing in 10 years the world will end? Wouldn't some amount of despair set in?
What happens to all the people born during the millenium? The saints who were raptured or taken to heaven to rule with Jesus before the millenium will not be harmed by the earth going up in flames. But what about all these people who have repopulated the earth? Will there be a 2nd rapture before the war of Gog and Magog?
Or will there be any righteous on the earth at all?
If not, what kind of a paradise is the 1000 year reign? We saints ruling over a world full of wicked, rebellious sinners, busy repopulating the earth with more sinners? That does not sound like paradise. I would think the reign of so righteous and just a King as Jesus would turn many to the Lord, not against Him.
Who, besides those armies who attack Jerusalem which we read about in Rev 20, do you believe is left on earth at the end of those 1000 years and what happens to them?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | StElsewhere wrote: | | In a 1000 years...there will be a fully populated world ...again... and sin will again wax great...those who satan will convert ...will not remember the preceding holocaust a 1000 years earlier...and will be beguiled by satan to turn against the ruling Jesus' Theocracy...and revolt! |
There is much truth in what you say......BUT, remember that their fate has already been sealed, as the Judgment Day of God was finished some 1000 years before. |
I beg to disagree... There are 2 "Great Days" of judgment...
1) Judgment Seat of Christ - When Jesus returns ...and judges all who rejected Him:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Then after the 1000 year reign of Jesus comes the
2) Great White Throne before God - Where God judges everyone else and all who lived during the preceding 1000 years:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | How interesting.
From the moment the war of Armageddon is over and the millenial reign begins, everyone will know exactly how long it will be until the earth is destroyed completely. How would you feel if you knew?
They will have 1000 years to enjoy paradise, and then... everything goes up in flames.
What will happen in the last say... 10 or 20 years before the end? Will people stop bothering to have kids, knowing in 10 years the world will end? Wouldn't some amount of despair set in?
What happens to all the people born during the millenium? The saints who were raptured or taken to heaven to rule with Jesus before the millenium will not be harmed by the earth going up in flames. But what about all these people who have repopulated the earth? Will there be a 2nd rapture before the war of Gog and Magog?
Or will there be any righteous on the earth at all?
If not, what kind of a paradise is the 1000 year reign? We saints ruling over a world full of wicked, rebellious sinners, busy repopulating the earth with more sinners? That does not sound like paradise. I would think the reign of so righteous and just a King as Jesus would turn many to the Lord, not against Him.
Who, besides those armies who attack Jerusalem which we read about in Rev 20, do you believe is left on earth at the end of those 1000 years and what happens to them? |
You have several different events jumbled up together ...if you could break down your questions...maybe I can be assistance in unscrambling some of them. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | You have several different events jumbled up together ... |
I don't think so. I thought I was pretty clear. I am asking about the 1000 year reign only, and specifically the last few years of it.
| StElsewhere wrote: | | ...maybe I can be assistance in unscrambling some of them. |
I certainly appreciate your offer to straighten out any confusion or disorder in my posts.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Nobby
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Zatch, "need some help???" 
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:34 am Post subject: |
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So was I... Ok let see where the misunderstanding is...Let's examine the whole picture:
Immediately after the Great Tribulation Jesus Returns
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of an in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Judgment Seat of Christ - Jesus judges all who rejected Him are cast into to hell but the fire is not yet ...and contrary wise...Jesus rewards all who believed on Him and did according to His Word...satan is jailed not allowed to mess with mens minds again...for 1000 years...day for day!...
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Jesus and the Saints rule this world with a Rod of Iron...or tough enforcement... for 1000 years.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Jesus' Rule will be a theocracy where sin will not be allowed...wrong will not have the right of way....Jesus is at the helm...and right will be done...like it or not!
Now during this 1000 years...who is being ruled by the Saints and Jesus? All the people left in the world who never heard whether there even be such one as Jesus...yes there will be few...but people will begin to repopulate the severely decimated world...and year after year...people will do what people do ...they will marry and be given in marriage...and multiply the earth once again...and day for day ...year for year...and after a long while...the tale of the epic coming of Jesus that changed the world...will do as all historical events do...fade into myth...and when the 1000th year approaches...there will be resentment and rebellion against Jesus and His Saints and their rule by the Rod of Iron ... and to further that rebellion along...on the 1000th year anniversary of his imprisonment...satan will be loosed once again...
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now you have got to know..satan is pissed...big-time! ...and of course "Rebellion" being satan's middle name...it is then the final confrontation between God and satan is about to take place...
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Do you see the massive repopulation of the world?
Jesus' Kingdom city is Jerusalem...and satan gathers the armies of the nations of the world...and plans to make an all out attack against those Saints...Jerusalem and God Himself!...Jesus Christ Is God!
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:...
... and then just before the attack cry is given...for the most massive assault ever assembled since man was created...Satan Vs God...then before one arrow is launched or one bullet fired...SWOOSH!...
and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. now the tormenting begins!
Story almost over...Then comes the White Throne Judgment before God:
Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And there before God and the Saints who will judge all who had not rejected Christ ...but had to be judged according to their works while they were alive.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psa 76:9 When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.
With all righteously judged...then comes the sentencing:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Where the payback never ends!Gos has the last laugh! at all who mocked Him and scorned Him..called Him "She"...said He didn't exist...and refused to believe His Word...
...and then time is no more and forever begins!
Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Amen...and amen again!javascript:emoticon('')
Cool
You know the sad truth is that with such a great reward as this...the intrinsically...spiritual weak...afraid of the Great Tribulation...can't see pass their fear of discomfort or fear of being made to publicly stand up for their belief in Christ or die...they can't see the reward at the end of the little bit of darkness...now that is truly sad!  |
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