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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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JP,
You cannot blame Rocket for not knowing "the trinity" as there are many different beliefs regarding it. All base on non-scriptural creeds that don't make sense. You cannot clearly explain what you believe. In the past you support both 3 persons in one God, and 1 person in 3 roles. How is anyone suppse to understand that?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I see the Trinity as a triange with God the Father at the top, God the Son on the right, and God the Holy Spirit on the left. This triange can be as big as you want it and it works the same way as the one Earth planet we live on. One Earth, but within the one earth there exists many different creations. That's how we all become one in the Trinity sense I think Jesus prayed for. We become one, but maintain our own identities.
I think you non-Trinitarians must have a different visual for the hierarchies in heaven. You seem to have angels and gods intertwined. What place does the Holy Spirit take? Is that another god? How is heaven arranged in your scheme? |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: |
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cballard,
Hi,
Nice explanation of how you see the trinity.
The truth remains, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not scriptural terms, but the inventions of men.
Your whole one earth thing is understandable. However that is not what Jesus was refering to as he prayed to his heavenly Father for his disciples to be one with them.
| cballard wrote: | | That's how we all become one in the Trinity sense I think Jesus prayed for. |
Are you saying the disciples were to become part of the trinity?
| cballard wrote: | | I think you non-Trinitarians must have a different visual for the hierarchies in heaven. |
Correct. There is only one over all, God Jehovah. Jesus is second place. All others are underneath.
| cballard wrote: | | What place does the Holy Spirit take? Is that another god? |
cballard, do you read my responces?
Is the power from God another god? NO!!!!!
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | Your whole one earth thing is understandable. However that is not what Jesus was refering to as he prayed to his heavenly Father for his disciples to be one with them. |
It wasn't? What makes your opinion better than mine?
TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | Are you saying the disciples were to become part of the trinity? |
Well, yes, just as we are part of the Earth.
TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | Correct. There is only one over all, God Jehovah. Jesus is second place. All others are underneath. |
Yep, that's the way my triangle looks too.
TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | Is the power from God another god? NO!!!!! |
Tell me why the Holy Spirit couldn't decend until Jesus returned to the Father? Are the Father and the Spirit the same? Did the Father appear as tongues of fire? The invisible Father can't appear. So it is obvious from Scripture that the Spirit is different from God. I think all agree that the power for all things come from God the Father. How do you see the Son and the Spirit related to God? |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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In order to underestand 'true' Christianity, it is necessary to sit down and read. Read the Bible, don't just read verses and decide that is the true belief, that is called reading the Bible out of context. As for my not understanding the trinity, which part of it don't I suppostedly understand.
Catholic teaching, Jesus is God incarnate.
There are three, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These three make up the Godhead. Is that the one I don't understand? There is one God made up of three persons? Is that the one I don't understand.
I'm sorry to have to tell you, it is you who do not understand the true teachings God revealed to you through Jesus Christ. You will not understand it by reading words of men. God spoke to you in the Bible.
In chapter 14 of John, Jesus in His words gives us the meaning of the Holy Spirit.
John14:16 ' I will ask the Father
and He will send another Paraclete to be with you always.
Is He telling you the Holy Spirit is God. No!!!!!!!!
The Paraclete will dwell in you, just as He did in the Book of Acts, Chapter 2 where the Holy Spirit came to the Apostles.
Isaiah Chapter 53 The great prophet Isaish prophisied and describes the Messiah in detail. Isaiah lived in the second half of the 8th century B.C. He was called by God, the One True God, to be a Prophet.
We see the fulfillment of those prophesies in the New Testament.
Where do you see Jesus claiming He is God? How can you overlook the many times He called on God His Father, His Father, not His co-equal.
I don't even know why I bother, you won't sit down and read the Bible, you won't research historical facts, you don't want to know anything but the lies of the church.
I wish you joy. I pray one day you will understand. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
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cballard,
Hi,
| cballard wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Are you saying the disciples were to become part of the trinity? |
Well, yes, just as we are part of the Earth. |
Oh? Really? Wouldn't that make it a Quadrinity? Are you saying you can become God?
| cballard wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Correct. There is only one over all, God Jehovah. Jesus is second place. All others are underneath. |
Yep, that's the way my triangle looks too. |
??? Are you reading carefully? If you view Jesus as in second place under God as well, I think you need to explain your belief in the trinity a little better. Besides, I only mentioned 2 individualls. God and Jesus. That is a triangle? That is God on top, Jesus directly underneath, then the family tree spreading out.
| cballard wrote: | | Tell me why the Holy Spirit couldn't decend until Jesus returned to the Father? |
Jesus receives the Holy Spirit from the Father and sends it to his disciples.
| cballard wrote: | | Are the Father and the Spirit the same? |
No. The Holy Spirit is power from God Jehovah.
| cballard wrote: | | Did the Father appear as tongues of fire? |
No. The Holy Spirit is not itself the Father, but the power or active force from God.
| cballard wrote: | | So it is obvious from Scripture that the Spirit is different from God. |
Absolutly correct!!! Then why do you call it "God the Holy Spirit"?
| cballard wrote: | | How do you see the Son and the Spirit related to God? |
Jesus receives the Holy Spirit from the Father and sends it to his disciples.
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | you won't sit down and read the Bible, you won't research historical facts, |
You assume much and know little.
| Quote: | | you don't want to know anything but the lies of the church. |
Why don't you tell me what 'church' you are referring to? You keep referring to this concept but offer nothing to explain what you mean. Please, take a moment and define what you are referring to.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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RevivedJP, please let us know who you are quoting! 
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | Oh? Really? Wouldn't that make it a Quadrinity? Are you saying you can become God? |
No. We cannot become God. We cannot become part of the triangle, but we will dwell inside of it.
TBax wrote:
| Quote: | | ??? Are you reading carefully? If you view Jesus as in second place under God as well, I think you need to explain your belief in the trinity a little better. Besides, I only mentioned 2 individualls. God and Jesus. That is a triangle? That is God on top, Jesus directly underneath, then the family tree spreading out. |
Yes, I know you only mentioned two entities, and I did ask how you see the Holy Spirit. Was the Holy Spirit created?
If you see that it is the wisdom and power of God and He always had it with Him, well, that's the same way we see Jesus, the son of God. God was never without the Son or the Holy Spirit. Even by your own reasoning you can see that the Father, Son and Spirit always work together and have since God began revealing Himself to us through Scripture. They aren't separate enties because they never are opposed or unaware of the will of the Father. Yet, the Spirit and the Son have been manifested in visual form on Earth, but not the Father. So, they are different, but still one. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| apocatastasis wrote: | | RevivedJP, please let us know who you are quoting! |
I would appreciate it if you would be mature enough to stop misrepresenting my screen name.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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cballard
Hi,
| cballard wrote: | | No. We cannot become God. We cannot become part of the triangle, |
Then how can you use the same phrasing to prove Jesus is God? Part of your triangle.
| cballard wrote: | | Yes, I know you only mentioned two entities, and I did ask how you see the Holy Spirit. Was the Holy Spirit created? |
Then how did you see your triangle in what I said?
I have explained how I see the Holy Spirit. Sir, you need to read more carefully.
| cballard wrote: | | If you see that it is the wisdom and power of God and He always had it with Him, well, that's the same way we see Jesus, the son of God. |
First, I never said "wisdom", but power or active force from God.
Second, Jesus is different as he is actually a person and the scriptures show he had an origin.
| cballard wrote: | | Even by your own reasoning you can see that the Father, Son and Spirit always work together |
Exactly. Jesus works with God, and God's power obviously does that for which He sends it forth to do, but that in no way makes them 3 in 1 God. Working with God doesn't make you God.
| cballard wrote: | | They aren't separate enties |
What??? Didn't you say Jesus is not the Father? You now say Jesus is the same entity as the Father?  It is this type of confusion that the trinity creates.
| cballard wrote: | | because they never are opposed |
Just because you don't oppose someone IN NO WAY makes you a single entity with that one! Agreeing with God doesn't make you God.
| cballard wrote: | | or unaware of the will of the Father. |
Matt 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
Seems the Son was unaware of something the Father knew.
| cballard wrote: | | Yet, the Spirit and the Son have been manifested in visual form on Earth, but not the Father. |
Correct. The power from God and the firstborn of all creation have been manifested in visual form on Earth, but not so with God. Just like the Bible says: "No man has seen God at any time". 
Hence God's Holy Spirit and Jesus are not God!!! 
| cballard wrote: | | So, they are different, but still one. |
The faithful angels work together with God as well. The faithful disciples work together with God as well. The disciples are to be one with God, yet they are not God!!!
The same is true of Jesus.
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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JP,
| JP wrote: | | I would appreciate it if you would be mature enough to stop misrepresenting my screen name. |
What does the Rev in RevJP stand for anyway?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP, I have already answered your question about which church I am refering to, but I will again answer your question in just a little more detail.
The Catholic church was formed in 325AD and was the only church available to people untill the reformation. The reformation was instigated by men who had different ideas then the Catholic Church but based their church on the Catholic church ideas including the trinity.
Therefore, it is with great sorrow that I include all, I repeat I include all denominations when I say church.
Now Collard, Where do you come up with the idea that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were always with God. That's very interesting but I can't seem to find it in the Bible. |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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The idea comes from the beginning of Genesis - God the creator, his spirit, and the word...all reiterated in the beginning of Luke.
As far as I understand, these verses are the basis for the Trinity doctrine (plus Jesus saying things like, "as you see me so you have seen the father", etc.). However, overall I don't understand nor necessarily accept the concept. Seems like rather convoluted, complicated, unnecessary mumbo-jumbo to me.
I mean, does it really matter? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| RevivedJP wrote: | | I would appreciate it if you would be mature enough to stop misrepresenting my screen name. |
I'm not misrepresenting your screenname unless of course you have changed your mind as to what the "Rev" stands for.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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