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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | As Rev. JP said those are examples of extremism and excessive rhetoric. It's kind of like saying Larry Flynt is a typical heterosexual to say these are typical homosexuals. |
Quite right indeed.
| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Interesting and poingant, yet sad. If you had dropped the judgementalism and pretending to know the will of God think how much better the relationships would have been. |
Perhaps I was not direct enough in my description of our relationship. Janice and I lived in So. Cal. at my parents home from age 15-19. We were inseparable. We were closer in relationship than myself and any of my six sisters or my two brothers. We knew everything about each other. I cannot imagine being closer to any one than I was with Janice. She felt no judgmentalism. We discussed this issue many times. There were no secrets, and no ill feelings. Mago to this day continues to live with Janice's mother and is at all family functions.
You see, judgementalism is so often construed as lack of love, lack of compassion, lack of caring, lack of understanding. None of these apply to this family or this relationship. When we judge someone, we are stating a moral position. If our moral position is different than theirs, we do not have to follow this with lack of love, lack of compassion, lack of caring, lack of understanding. Jesus judged many people. Paul instructs us to judge folks. In this day of moral relativism, we are told "Don't be judgemental". To be otherwise is unscriptural.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Interesting and poingant, yet sad. If you had dropped the judgementalism and pretending to know the will of God think how much better the relationships would have been. |
Perhaps I was not direct enough in my description of our relationship. Janice and I lived in So. Cal. at my parents home from age 15-19. We were inseparable. We were closer in relationship than myself and any of my six sisters or my two brothers. We knew everything about each other. I cannot imagine being closer to any one than I was with Janice. She felt no judgmentalism. We discussed this issue many times. There were no secrets, and no ill feelings. Mago to this day continues to live with Janice's mother and is at all family functions.
You see, judgementalism is so often construed as lack of love, lack of compassion, lack of caring, lack of understanding. None of these apply to this family or this relationship. When we judge someone, we are stating a moral position. If our moral position is different than theirs, we do not have to follow this with lack of love, lack of compassion, lack of caring, lack of understanding. Jesus judged many people. Paul instructs us to judge folks. In this day of moral relativism, we are told "Don't be judgemental". To be otherwise is unscriptural. |
I don't want to parse your personal story. If what you say is true, wonderful, but I'd still say it'd be better without judging. Paul was zealous in his forceful drive to organize Christian congregations in the Roman Empire, but his specific advice on various actions were not too well thought out. He is responsible, probably unintentionally on his part, for much harm where his words have been used to justify oppression of women and slavery among other things.
I would have to say though if your relationships with gay relatives were as positive as you describe it is certainly the exception to the rule. Many of the throwaway kids on today's urban streets have been kicked out of their homes for being homosexual. (James Bakker Jr., the son of Jim and Tammy Faye, operates a shelter and ministry for street kids in Atlanta. He does not judge gay kids. His parents avoided that in their ministry as well.) It is not unusual for gay and lesbian adults to be estranged from parents and other family; certainly in many cases their companions are not welcome at family gatherings. A friend who is a retired pastor now serving as a Christian counselor is struggling with a couple estranged from their lesbian daughter. As she recently had a baby her mother is interested in reconciling with her but progress is going slow especially since they are strongly discouraged against the reconciliation by their fellow church members.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Paul was zealous in his forceful drive to organize Christian congregations in the Roman Empire, but his specific advice on various actions were not too well thought out. He is responsible, probably unintentionally on his part, for much harm where his words have been used to justify oppression of women and slavery among other things. |
These are the words of God, as given to Paul. We agree that many have misused the Word of God to justify actions so contrary to His Word.
We must understand that as a Christian we accept the Bible as infallable Word of God given to us through those men He inspired to write it. It is not their own thoughts and interpretations of morality. It is is the Lord's.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Paul was zealous in his forceful drive to organize Christian congregations in the Roman Empire, but his specific advice on various actions were not too well thought out. He is responsible, probably unintentionally on his part, for much harm where his words have been used to justify oppression of women and slavery among other things. |
These are the words of God, as given to Paul. We agree that many have misused the Word of God to justify actions so contrary to His Word.
We must understand that as a Christian we accept the Bible as infallable Word of God given to us through those men He inspired to write it. It is not their own thoughts and interpretations of morality. It is is the Lord's. |
The difference between fundamentalists and more liberal Christians is the latter would disagree with such a categorical statement. Divinely inspired, yes, but applicable in every case to today, no. Hence we ordain female clergy and worry less about sexual sins. You can either avoid literacism and legalism or be a candidate for prison or a padded cell in Bedlam.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | The difference between fundamentalists and more liberal Christians is the latter would disagree with such a categorical statement. Divinely inspired, yes, but applicable in every case to today, no. Hence we ordain female clergy and worry less about sexual sins. You can either avoid literacism and legalism or be a candidate for prison or a padded cell in Bedlam. |
Your statement is backing the position of postmodernism and moral relativism. Is that the ideas to which you ascribe?
Is fundamentalism not the most appropriate method of understanding the Bible and living our lives?
fun·da·men·tal·ism n. - A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles; An organized, Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to liberalism and secularism that had crept into biblical translations, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture according the original manuscript evidence.
Legalism, in the biblical definition, refers to living by the Law versus living in the Spirit. Neither change the principles laid in the Word of God.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Your statement is backing the position of postmodernism and moral relativism. Is that the ideas to which you ascribe? |
Not specifically
| Quote: | | Is fundamentalism not the most appropriate method of understanding the Bible and living our lives? |
I do not believe it is. It is an attempt to obtain easy answers to complex questions and falls short.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:25 am Post subject: |
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These are the words of God, as given to Paul. We agree that many have misused the Word of God to justify actions so contrary to His Word.
We must understand that as a Christian we accept the Bible as infallable Word of God given to us through those men He inspired to write it. It is not their own thoughts and interpretations of morality. It is is the Lord's.
The difference between fundamentalists and more liberal Christians is the latter would disagree with such a categorical statement. Divinely inspired, yes, but applicable in every case to today, no. Hence we ordain female clergy and worry less about sexual sins |
Then I would have to think liberal Christian is an oxymoron. You seem to be saying that liberals do not accept the infalliblilty of the scriptures as the Holy inspired Word of God. But more to the point they believe it to be divinely inspired by tinged with the influence of the men who physically wrote it. If so, then liberals believe a conflict, which effectively eliminates the divinity of scripture.
Ordination of woman as pastors is contrary to scripture. The bible is clear on the role of woman in the church, to ordain a woman is to encourage her to speak in church, to teach in church. There is no denying the conflict here with scripture. Unless one denies the divinity of scripture. If that is the case, then why bother talking about it at all, the bible is just a collection of words at that point then, isn't it?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: |
These are the words of God, as given to Paul. We agree that many have misused the Word of God to justify actions so contrary to His Word.
We must understand that as a Christian we accept the Bible as infallable Word of God given to us through those men He inspired to write it. It is not their own thoughts and interpretations of morality. It is is the Lord's.
The difference between fundamentalists and more liberal Christians is the latter would disagree with such a categorical statement. Divinely inspired, yes, but applicable in every case to today, no. Hence we ordain female clergy and worry less about sexual sins |
Then I would have to think liberal Christian is an oxymoron. You seem to be saying that liberals do not accept the infalliblilty of the scriptures as the Holy inspired Word of God. But more to the point they believe it to be divinely inspired by tinged with the influence of the men who physically wrote it. If so, then liberals believe a conflict, which effectively eliminates the divinity of scripture.
Ordination of woman as pastors is contrary to scripture. The bible is clear on the role of woman in the church, to ordain a woman is to encourage her to speak in church, to teach in church. There is no denying the conflict here with scripture. Unless one denies the divinity of scripture. If that is the case, then why bother talking about it at all, the bible is just a collection of words at that point then, isn't it? |
We're a little off topic. a good number of churches ordain female clergy but the largest, Catholic and Southern Baptist, generally don't.
Many liberal Christian scholars can explain the reasons for such a worldview better than I can. Perhaps the best book I've read on the topic is Challenge of a Liberal Faith by George Marshall. Above all, faith in the human mind is accorded a higher trust than faith in scripture. As Christians, we worship Christ, not the Bible. Fundamentalism is a recent innovation in history of Christianity, having developed from 1870-1920, and not at all congruent with historic faith. Reconciling modern knowledge with fundamentalism is an exercise in futility.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Quote without comment
| DBB wrote: | | Above all, faith in the human mind is accorded a higher trust than faith in scripture. |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | Quote without comment
| DBB wrote: | | Above all, faith in the human mind is accorded a higher trust than faith in scripture. |
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That is the sentence that got me too,  but I will comment.
We either have our eyes and our hearts turned toward God or toward our self. Here is a 3-point makeup of our old self:
-The sinful nature I inherited from Adam
-The effects of the sins I have committed myself
-The effects of the sins that others have perpetrated against me
Are we to base our faith on a human mind that has this makeup?
The general public has a worldy view that men are basically good. This is not what we are taught in Scripture. Quite the contrary. We are born of a human nature that is morally bankrupt.
I place my faith in Christ and come to the throne confidently to the God revealed in the bible.
Our focus is self or God. What is your focus?
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Note: Some of my comments are in the quote below.
| Zathrus wrote: | There is only one people: the human race. Homosexuals are part of us. They're not a them that we should consider separate from ourselves.
me: Well said.
zathrus: I may find aspects of the lifestyle of gays to be distasteful, but they are fellow human beings and deserve dignity and respect, as all human beings do. |
me: Well said, again! Everyone has some aspect of their life that someone may find distasteful. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Are Homosexuals a People? |
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| Van wrote: | One of the definitions for being a "people" is a common shared inherited characteristic, such as being born human. The decendents of Abraham are called a people. Some advocates of acceptance of homosexual behavior call homosexuals a people.
Underlying this assertion is the idea that people who engage in homosexual behavior were born pre-disposed to that behavior. They were attracted to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex from birth. But is the assertion true? Could a person attracted to the same sex early in life, change in order to have an opportunity to produce children, but then, rather than fulfill the natural committment to raise and care for the child into young adulthood, go back to satisfying themselves at the expense of the community? Are they a people or are they reprobates, putting their desire for physical pleasure above the needs of the community.
Usually those advocating homosexual behavior talk about some who engage in lifelong committments and do not sleep around. But do such people actually exist in significant numbers, or is it a myth based on a tiny fraction of those that engage in homosexual behavior. The spread of Aids among homosexuals indicates that many homosexuals engage in sex with as many partners as they can find. Some women were infected by men who engaged in sex with men and women, again pointing to the desire for physical pleasure above committment to any person or any sex.
Where do you draw the line between tolerating individual behavior and advocating behaviors that nuture the family, and thus the community?
God has told us His view, but what do the pagans think?
Final thought, does being pre-disposed to a characteristic behavior, such as being attracted to blond girls in scanty bathing suits, mean that I am a people, or just human with a human flaw? |
I think you need to step back and take a look at God's created animal kingdom. Though animals, God still made it so that certain species change from one gender to another and act out all that the specified gender does, including the sex act/positions. There are known humans who are born one gender (physically speaking) and then when puberty comes, their physical bodies change into the opposite gender. You may call this weird and a result of sin or whatever. Maybe you have to in order to justify your position and views, but God, the creator of all things, could have made it so that these things did not happen, but they do. Homosexual pairings is not uncommon in the God created animal kingdom. Check out Bruce Bagemihl's book. You'll have to search his name and find out the title. It's something having to do with homosexuality. The word is in it's tile. There is a colorful bird, I believe on its cover. You may be shocked and surprised at such things, but God is not. He knows his workmanship and all that it entails. If it is true what they say about those who are born one sex and feel like another internally: that at birth, their brain goes one way (genderwise) and their bodies develop the opposite way (genderwise), then you can believe God knows what he has proven that he loves regardless. What constitutes a male or female anyway? Genitalia. A man is a man because why? He has male genitalia? THAT make him male? What if he has to be castrated? Is he no longer male then? Funny I should bring that up, because in ancient times, in regards to eunuchs, there were natural eunuchs and man made eunuchs and the distinction between the two was clear. One was naturally a eunuch, but not due to any physical defects like castration or crushed *Hairy Human Bowling Balls*. He was naturally a eunuch due to his orientation towards the same gender. Man made eunuchs were those who had physical defects, whether by choice or force. Hmm. One of them sounds like gay men to me. Jesus spoke of three types of eunuchs. You think Jesus would be aware of persons with such an orientation? I say yes. A good beginning would be at http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| For some reason, the link in the above post is not working correctly. It keeps taking me to another site. If anyone has tried to click on this link, it would be better to simple do a search on the name Faris Malik or enter in your search engine 'eunuchs', 'eunuchs are gay men', etc. The web address is http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm Look for this when you are searching or something similar like the following address http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm Sorry about any inconveniences. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| summertime wrote: | | For some reason, the link in the above post is not working correctly. |
Hint. Do *NOT* put a dot behind the link.
Your link is as follows; http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm. [note the dot after .../index.htm.]
My revised link shows; http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm [note the abcense of a dot after .../index.htm]
Try both, yours will give a 404error, while mine will get you to the page you linked to 
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | | summertime wrote: | | For some reason, the link in the above post is not working correctly. |
Hint. Do *NOT* put a dot behind the link.
Your link is as follows; http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm. [note the dot after .../index.htm.]
My revised link shows; http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm [note the abcense of a dot after .../index.htm]
Try both, yours will give a 404error, while mine will get you to the page you linked to
Fake |
You're right!!! Thanks so much. I see nothing 'fake' about you:) LOL!! |
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