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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi Apoc--------
I have been watching your discussion with Ebal on the "never see death" thread.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
the word never is rendered from three words ou me eis aion
it should have read
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall in no way see death in or during the age.
but those who do not keep it will be dead for the age just as they are dead now
they will not live until the age is over
the age is the thousand years reign which concludes in the White Throne Judgment.
the house aeonian is only for the age stated above .All will receive it but the wicked won't be in the house until after the age,after they go through the judgment the second death and the second resurrection.Once all have been brought in there is no more time, no more aions,
Christ was the beginning and will be the end of it.
much love----------knuckle |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| apocatastasis wrote: | Here is a quote from Marvin Vincent:
| Quote: | | Thus, while aionios carries the idead of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions. |
thoughts? |
MV is perfectly correct.
Each word when loved carries Love as its eternal moral component or character, simply because only Love is eternal since it is unconditional. Matthew 5;43-48.
It is this eternity of Love which then confers on the word, any word, all meanings and any meaning depending on the subtext.
So what's eternal about aionios is Love, and aionios then means eveything length of time: age-lasting, long lasting, shortlasting, etc and etc ad infinitum.
So too with eternal life: what's eternal about life is the eternity of Love with which we live life, whether it is mortal life or the life of which God is composed: spirit life.
in the immortality of Love for life and time,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Re: eternal |
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| psalm90:3 wrote: |  Only that it it does not mean that it goes on without ending.
The Eternal is the I AM....to believe that everlasting..foreverlasting..and
forever have no ending nulifies Jesus being the Beginning and the END
the Alpha and OMEGA. Aionios most certainly is Age lasting..to the age..
to the ages of the ages...but it will end. The I Am is without time..He
alone is what we must say is eternal and never-ending...He has no
beginning..so there is no ending in HIM> |
Yes!
God is the 'I am' or 'the I am what I am' or 'the I am who I am' only because he loves himself as all of what words he is which includes all of what words we think he is.
So He told Moses to tell the Egyptians that 'I am what I am' simply because whatever or whoever they THOUGHT he was, he was! Exodus 3;14-15.
So God is forever only because He is Love which is forever because it is unconditional.
in Love of who I am and who i was or who I will i am or william,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi Apoc--------
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
the word never is rendered from three words ou me eis aion
it should have read
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall in no way see death in or during the age.
but those who do not keep it will be dead for the age just as they are dead now
they will not live until the age is over
the age is the thousand years reign which concludes in the White Throne Judgment.
the house aeonian is only for the age stated above .All will receive it but the wicked won't be in the house until after the age,after they go through the judgment the second death and the second resurrection.Once all have been brought in there is no more time, no more aions,
Christ was the beginning and will be the end of it.
much love----------knuckle |
Hi Knuckle,
Good points.
And what if the death JC is referring to is NOT physical death but spiritual death, the death of Love as happens when I hate anyone or anything or any word, let's say.
Won't that make Spiritual death the first death as in Luke 9:60 and make physical death the 2nd death as in Jude 12 and Rev 20:6?
Which if true would then make a whole new adjustment to what is meant by the 1000 year period after which the rest of dead are judged in Rev 20:5-7, 14.
Your thoughts please.
with Love and r,
atoz |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Atoz--------
Jesus said that My words are Spirit and they are truth the flesh profits nothing.
the first death and the second are both a spiritual death --His death that we are baptized into.They are the same death some die it in the here and now others die it after but all will die this death so that they may be resurrected into life.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death(what we call "life" in the here and now) unto life.
the immortal body is almost an afterthought cause Christ sees the believer as already raised incorruptible.
I like the way you think Atoz(it is only some of what you write that stumps me  )
much love-------------knuckle |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi Atoz--------
Jesus said that My words are Spirit and they are truth the flesh profits nothing.
the first death and the second are both a spiritual death --His death that we are baptized into.They are the same death some die it in the here and now others die it after but all will die this death so that they may be resurrected into life.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death(what we call "life" in the here and now) unto life.
the immortal body is almost an afterthought cause Christ sees the believer as already raised incorruptible.
I like the way you think Atoz(it is only some of what you write that stumps me )
much love-------------knuckle |
John 6:63 is one of my favs: to prove that JC is mostly speaking figuratively or in spirit of Love.
Any way, I like your reply, it's logical since you think that both deaths are spiritual...even tho i differ!smile
Wish more people wd talk to each other like we do!smile
What's that?U like the way I think it's only some of what i write that stumps you?smile
U mean it's not what I don't know that bothers you; it's what i know for certain that just ain't so?lol
with all love and r,
atoz |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
the word never is rendered from three words ou me eis aion
it should have read
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall in no way see death in or during the age. |
Nay, for the Gospel of John makes it clear that aeonian life never perishes (6:51). This, in fact, is a most fundamental theme which runs through Johaninne thought: The eternal Life of God transcends this world of change and decay!
That being said, I do agree that a special "age" is in view, but aion means so much more than a mere "age" and incorporates into its meaning the imperishable quality of divine life whcih characterizes the Messianic age.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| apocatastasis wrote: | | Quote: | Here is a quote from Marvin Vincent:
Thus, while aionios carries the idead of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions. |
thoughts? |
MV is perfectly correct.
Each word when loved carries Love as its eternal moral component or character, simply because only Love is eternal since it is unconditional. Matthew 5;43-48.
It is this eternity of Love which then confers on the word, any word, all meanings and any meaning depending on the subtext.
So what's eternal about aionios is Love, and aionios then means evey length of time: age-lasting, long lasting, shortlasting, etc and etc ad infinitum.
So too with eternal life:
what's eternal about life is the eternity of Love with which we live life, whether it is mortal life or the life of which God is composed: spirit life.
in the immortality of Love for life and time,
atoz |
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