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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6287
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | Let's try this again: | Trinity1 wrote: | | Please tell us all why a summation must follow the same chronology as a narration. |
Please describe exactly what justification you have for describing chapter two of Genesis as a summary. |
I have FFT... Gen 2:4... we have been over this before... now... answer the question. |
Yes, you've insisted over and over that Genesis 2:4 describes what follows it as a summary. What is your justification for this except apologetic reasoning? "It doesn't eliminate the possibility" is a ridiculous argument but appears to be all you've actually come up with.
So please, actual justification. Do you have any?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Yes, you've insisted over and over that Genesis 2:4 describes what follows it as a summary. What is your justification for this except apologetic reasoning? "It doesn't eliminate the possibility" is a ridiculous argument but appears to be all you've actually come up with.
So please, actual justification. Do you have any? |
I've explained it several times to you FFT... "This is a history of", "These are the generations of", et. al. indicates a summary is coming if: A summary does come. (Which is what happened)
Now, you would like to believe that is not the case as it would be the only excuse you could come up with to somehow try to invalidate the harmony between the two. Unfortunately, Gen 2:4 sticks it to your incoherent exegesis of the opening Chapters.
Sorry... but as I have pointed out to you several times that this is the case. You keep ignoring it... then snivel about me not answering your repeated question... all the while ignoring mine. If you are not going to engage here FFT... then the only reason explanation is your simply no longer have a leg to stand on. I refuted your one and only citation, I have addressed your argument over a translation problem, and I have even given you the transliteration of these words (which just happen to line up perfectly with it being a summation) and you still refuse to concede the point.
I guess it comes down to the truism that regardless how many different ways you demonstrate to some people that they are simply wrong, they will never admit it.
Sorry FFT... I'm just tired of showing you how wrong you are. IF there is something else I might have missed, or you are actually going to get around to telling me why a summation must follow the same chronology of a narrative... I'm going to consider this issue settled.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8221
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
I've explained it several times to you FFT... "This is a history of", "These are the generations of", et. al. indicates a summary is coming if: A summary does come. (Which is what happened) |
So, tell me, is the story which starts like this a narrative or is it fiction:
"A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6287
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | I've explained it several times to you FFT... "This is a history of", "These are the generations of", et. al. indicates a summary is coming if: A summary does come. (Which is what happened) |
Post hoc reasoning then. Got it.
I'm glad we cleared that up!
So you've actually got nothing at all to justify Genesis 2 as a summary except the fact that it doesn't follow the same order as Genesis 1—and this is sufficient for you?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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wow...and still trying to get a straight answer... ..  . |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | I've explained it several times to you FFT... "This is a history of", "These are the generations of", et. al. indicates a summary is coming if: A summary does come. (Which is what happened) |
Post hoc reasoning then. Got it.
I'm glad we cleared that up!
So you've actually got nothing at all to justify Genesis 2 as a summary except the fact that it doesn't follow the same order as Genesis 1—and this is sufficient for you? |
Well... ain't we getting to be the clever one now FFT? We simply ignore all previous posts, the main body of my last one...crow that the other is obfuscating... and then somehow feign ignorance. Sorry pal... your loss.
I have explained it enough times in enough different ways... that only one who refuses to see could not… all the while, you refuse to answer one of my simple questions.
Sorry.. conversation is over.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
I've explained it several times to you FFT... "This is a history of", "These are the generations of", et. al. indicates a summary is coming if: A summary does come. (Which is what happened) |
So, tell me, is the story which starts like this a narrative or is it fiction:
"A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."? |
It would be fiction if it continued with a simple single celled organism crawled out of the pre-biotic ocean and evolved into all extant life forms... yea.. that would be fiction. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6287
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Sorry.. conversation is over. |
 Yes, when I've shown that you don't have anything valid to actually support your belief, there's not much else that can be said.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Sorry.. conversation is over. |
Yes, when I've shown that you don't have anything valid to actually support your belief, there's not much else that can be said. |
I see... you can ignore what I say... then say I have nothing valid to say... all the while ignoring my question which essentially destroys the 'support for your belief'.
Is that how this works in your world FFT?
Perhaps I could ask you?
What grammatical rule requires a summation to follow the same chronology as a narration?
Just one more time for ole times sake?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1563
Location: BC
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Sorry.. conversation is over. |
Yes, when I've shown that you don't have anything valid to actually support your belief, there's not much else that can be said. |
I see... you can ignore what I say... then say I have nothing valid to say... all the while ignoring my question which essentially destroys the 'support for your belief'.
Is that how this works in your world FFT?
Perhaps I could ask you?
What grammatical rule requires a summation to follow the same chronology as a narration?
Just one more time for ole times sake? |
This question is irrelevant until we nail down whether or not we are talking about a summation in the first place.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6287
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | This question is irrelevant until we nail down whether or not we are talking about a summation in the first place. |
Precisely.
Trinity1, all you have in support of your belief that Genesis 2 is a summary is invalid reasoning. There simply isn't any point in arguing further on the subject until you've got something else.
I may as well ask you to prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting Pluto.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | This question is irrelevant until we nail down whether or not we are talking about a summation in the first place. |
Precisely.
Trinity1, all you have in support of your belief that Genesis 2 is a summary is invalid reasoning. There simply isn't any point in arguing further on the subject until you've got something else.
I may as well ask you to prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting Pluto. |
Great... so the answer is no... you won't answer the question.
Got it.
You need more… OK… I’ll play this one more time… how about the little part... if you follow through the chapter where it reads in verse 2:8 where it states:
"Where He put the man He had formed"... if this wasn't a summation... using your logic, this verse would also be incorrectly interpreted/transliterated as this is past tense… a summation… not a chronology as you insist and never seem to get around to demonstrating.
See, the difference here is, is that I am providing you logical arguments that debunk your assertions. You, on the other hand are simply ignoring these arguments and then continuing with your argument that was debunked three pages ago.
I am sorry if I came to this discussion here with the ideal that once you disagree with someone on a point you should at least have the courtesy of demonstrating why... instead of engaging in some 2nd grade tactic where you completely ignore the others argument without addressing it. You have my apologies Sir for thinking that you were willing to defend your point.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | This question is irrelevant until we nail down whether or not we are talking about a summation in the first place. |
Great Ana.. can you tell me why it is not a summation when it begins with "This is the history of" and all of the rest of it just ahppens to fit the definition?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6287
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | Great... so the answer is no... you won't answer the question.
Got it. |
If your question was "are you still beating your girlfriend?" I wouldn't answer that either.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | "Where He put the man He had formed"... if this wasn't a summation... using your logic, this verse would also be incorrectly interpreted/transliterated as this is past tense… a summation… not a chronology as you insist and never seem to get around to demonstrating. |
1. Yeah, the tense could easily be a mistranslation.
2. Since when is it impossible for chronologies to be in past tense, to use your form of argument? The genealogies are all in past tense ("begat," not "begets").
| Trinity1 wrote: | | See, the difference here is, is that I am providing you logical arguments that debunk your assertions. |
I'm sure this is what you believe, but reality rejects your beliefs.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | You, on the other hand are simply ignoring these arguments and then continuing with your argument that was debunked three pages ago. |
My counterargument at this point is primarily "you don't have a valid argument" since I realized arguing against fallacy on its home territory was a losing proposition.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | I am sorry if I came to this discussion here with the ideal that once you disagree with someone on a point you should at least have the courtesy of demonstrating why... |
Have done already. You are arguing using a form of the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | instead of engaging in some 2nd grade tactic where you completely ignore the others argument without addressing it. |
Tell me, Trinity1, have you stopped beating your pastor?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Great Ana.. can you tell me why it is not a summation when it begins with "This is the history of" and all of the rest of it just ahppens to fit the definition? |
"This is the history of" does not imply that that which follows is out of order.
In any way, shape or form. You've simply come to this conclusion in an attempt to deny the plain fact that Genesis 1 and 2 are different stories.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | Great... so the answer is no... you won't answer the question.
Got it. |
If your question was "are you still beating your girlfriend?" I wouldn't answer that either.
Sorry to burst your bubble. |
What? That you refuse to answer a pertinent question. It is your prerogative... if you chose not to answer it... I guess I'll have to respect your right to decline to engage in this discussion. 
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | "Where He put the man He had formed"... if this wasn't a summation... using your logic, this verse would also be incorrectly interpreted/transliterated as this is past tense… a summation… not a chronology as you insist and never seem to get around to demonstrating. |
1. Yeah, the tense could easily be a mistranslation.
2. Since when is it impossible for chronologies to be in past tense, to use your form of argument? The genealogies are all in past tense ("begat," not "begets"). |
Not what I meant. If Gen 2 is a separate account of creation, as you have asserted, why does it state that God already created man? How does that work if it is a separate account? He admits, in 2:8 that man already exists... so why is it necessary for the author to expound on this point any further... except to satisfy you of course...
Also, Gen 2:4 states:
"In the day that the Lord created the heavens and the earth".
Doesn't this mean that it has already occurred? I.E. A summation is coming.
You can keep saying that I have demonstrated dink all you want... I have clearly demonstrated that it is a summation. You refuse to accept... answer a simple question... and then state:
| Quote: | | I'm sure this is what you believe, but reality rejects your beliefs. |
When in reality... you are the one who has offered zero evidence demonstrating otherwise...
Sorry.. but that is just the way this is shaking out.
| Quote: | | Tell me, Trinity1, have you stopped beating your pastor? |
No I haven't, he happens to like it. Now... tell me FFT... why does a summation have to follow the same chronology as a narrative?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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