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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | I don't know exactly chapter and verse, but I know somewhere in the Gospels Jesus says, "Do not worry about what you are to wear or eat. Consider the lillies in the field. God clothed them better than Solomn.." That's a very rough translations, but I don't think He wants us to dwell on the care of our physical bodies. |
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
QUESTION: Since the body carries around the mind that God wants to renew, how far will you get without the body to carry that mind God wants to renew ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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rjustice7
Growing Guppy
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Johnson City, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: Proper context is important... |
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| Cballard, Jesus is not speaking of health in this chapter. He’s telling those he’s speaking with not to worry or fret about material things. He is our provider. You can tell because He goes into talking about the lilies of the valley and how they’re clothed, and how they’re taken care of. Context is important! What about 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, “What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. Does it not make perfect sense to keep your temple clean? If we are careless and eat only junk food, we put our temple in risk. We should have some pride in what God gave us should we not? |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Silver Surfer | Silver Surfer wrote: | | And, God has NEVER changed, regarding this subject. |
May I ask, says who exactly? Yes he has:
1Co10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
Yes in the context of 1Co8~10 if one was to genuinely cause a potential convert to trip up over food then don't eat it. For example when I'm in India I generally only eat non fertilized eggs (and even that offends Jains and some Hindus, so that's with caution). But should we extend the same NT-denying caution to, say, an SDA? To be honest my feeling is that generally, in front of a non-Jewish Christian tied up with food laws, it would do him more good in the long run to eat pork right in front of him.
Mark 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and finally down the latrine?” Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Of course it's only the NT. In my experience many people who won't eat pork (genuine converts from Judaism, Islam and Hinduism excepted) don't accept the NT either, but for those who do, the above two verses are really a brick wall.
God bless
S. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Silver Surfer | Silver Surfer wrote: | | And, God has NEVER changed, regarding this subject. |
May I ask, says who exactly? Yes he has:
1Co10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
Yes in the context of 1Co8~10 if one was to genuinely cause a potential convert to trip up over food then don't eat it. For example when I'm in India I generally only eat non fertilized eggs (and even that offends Jains and some Hindus, so that's with caution). But should we extend the same NT-denying caution to, say, an SDA? To be honest my feeling is that generally, in front of a non-Jewish Christian tied up with food laws, it would do him more good in the long run to eat pork right in front of him.
Mark 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and finally down the latrine?” Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Thus he declared all foods clean.
Of course it's only the NT. In my experience many people who won't eat pork (genuine converts from Judaism, Islam and Hinduism excepted) don't accept the NT either, but for those who do, the above two verses are really a brick wall.
God bless
S. |
You may twist God's word anyway you like.....
the end result will be the same.
Christ declaration (about HIS 2nd coming) of what HE will do to those who eat UNclean foods, stands.
Christ's 2nd coming is described here....
66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
And what HE will do to those who ignores or rejected His words.....
66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Well, I'm screwed. Pork chops are, like, my absolute favorite meal...
Plus ham sandwiches, bacon on burgers, sausages...mmmmmm... |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| graphicsguy wrote: | Well, I'm screwed. Pork chops are, like, my absolute favorite meal...
Plus ham sandwiches, bacon on burgers, sausages...mmmmmm... |
Sorry......but, in the New Earth, there will be ONLY the original diet that God set forth that Adam & Eve ate of....fruits, nuts, and grains.
You would starve there.
Since you seem to have educated yourself to be in opposition of God's orignal diet.....gone against everything God said NOT TO EAT.
SORRY !
BUT.....if you were to reeducate yourself, slowly over time......God might then allow you onto the New Earth.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I thought there would be no more death on the new earth?
Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Hello Silver Surfer | Silver Surfer wrote: | | You may twist God's word anyway you like.....the end result will be the same. |
Come on, be nice, you know that quoting the NT over the OT is not "twisting", it's simply my choice as a Christian to accept what Peter says that the NT is more inspired than the OT. (verse reference deliberately left blank to see if anyone knows it)
Yes, sure, I recognise that Is.66 is a foreshadow of Gehenna, hence Christ having used the last verse of the chapter as the basis for his parable about Gehenna in Mark. That doesn't mean that everything in Is66 is going to be literally fulfilled when Gehenna happens. It's only a shadow. In the substance (ie the NT) Christ reveals that it's those who fail to clothe the naked and help the poor, not those who eat pork, who end up wailing and gnashing teeth.
Besides which, with respect, the whole pork thing is a bit too easy. If you really want to follow the law you need to do as Zipporah before straining at food laws. i.e. Silver Surfer, you need an izmel before a pork-fork (ouch!  )
Shalom
Steven |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Everything mentioned in the OT is for us to learn moral lessons from.
It is (and was) to teach us how Christ deals with people.
Thus God said: 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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graphicsguy
Alley Cat
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Awww man. You've responded to all my posts except this one...darn it...
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | You would starve there. |
| graphicsguy wrote: | I thought there would be no more death on the new earth?
Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." |
So, I'll ask the looming questions I've been dying to ask:
If there's no more death, how could I starve?
If there's no more death, why even bother eating? (though eating is very much a guilty pleasure...especially pork chops...)
Yes, I know I'm being an ***...it's an unfortunate part of my personality...I only do it online though, I'm very nice in real life...unless someone starts making ridiculous statements...then I get sour and spiteful and sarcastic...I talk to much too... |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Silver Surfer | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Everything mentioned in the OT is for us to learn moral lessons from. |
Well I'd agree with that, but a moral lesson from not eating pork would be, eg. don't do unclean things, not don't eat pork.
In this whole subject field the problem with the idea which make the distinction between "ceremonial law" and the "Ten Commandment law", eg SDAs and many Yahwehist groups, is distinguishing which belongs to which law.
It seems to me totally arbitrary: anything painful (like cutting off your foreskin) or impractical (like sacrificing animals at Zion), is left behind and anything easy (like not eating pork or not wearing poly-cotton mix shirts) is carried on and made a fuss of. That naturally leads us gnat straining scenarios.
And besides James says Gentile Christians can eat pork: "no greater burden". And Paul even says idol meats are okay "whatsoever you find in the meat market".
S |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| graphicsguy wrote: |
If there's no more death, how could I starve? |
I was merely illustrating a point, which I know you understood. | Quote: |
If there's no more death, why even bother eating? |
Because the saved person, who makes to the New Earth, will have a body of flesh and blood.
And, that body will be many times superior to what we now know, that that there is no comparasion.
AND.....in order to maintain eternal life, an individual will have to eat from the Tree of Life.
| Quote: | | Yes, I know I'm being an ***...it's an unfortunate part of my personality...I only do it online though, I'm very nice in real life...unless someone starts making ridiculous statements...then I get sour and spiteful and sarcastic...I talk to much too... |
HEY, no worry.
Many are the way people ask for help, to gain abetter understanding.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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rjustice7
Growing Guppy
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Johnson City, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: Just an opinion... |
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This is just my opinion guys, but I don't think it's wrong or anit-biblical to eat certain things, but I do believe it's wrong to over-indulge in eating the wrong kinds of things, because it is not good stewardship of our bodies.
I Timothy 4:1-5...
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
It's not that God has a problem with certain foods anymore, it's just that our bodies are the temples of God as stated in I Corinthians 6:19-20.  |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Just an opinion... |
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| rjustice7 wrote: |
I Timothy 4:1-5...
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
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Don't you recognize God's description of the RCC ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Just an opinion... |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | rjustice7 wrote: |
I Timothy 4:1-5...
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. |
Don't you recognize God's description of the RCC ? |
Couple of questions:
When did the RC church start celibacy of the priesthood?
Were there no Jewish groups who forbid to marry? I thought that some of the Essenes had this?
Also, slightly related, I thought Philo records that Therapeutae used to have sexual abstinence between man and wife at times?
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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