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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. |
Distinctly different than the Trinity.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology." |
Somewhat different, yet the same. 
| Quote: | | Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief." |
The origin of the trinity is not scriptural.
It is true that Christendoms trinity is a bit altered in its wording but it is also clear where the origin came from.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Somewhat different, yet the same. |
The only similarity is the number 3.
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The origin of the trinity is not scriptural. |
That is your opinion, however, there are whole libraries of theological writings that disagree with that opinion.
| Quote: | | It is true that Christendoms trinity is a bit altered in its wording but it is also clear where the origin came from. |
You are exactly correct. Most call it the Holy Bible.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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 You are just being silly now. History testafies where it came from. It is not from the Bible.
| Quote: | | The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. |
| JP wrote: | | That is your opinion, however, there are whole libraries of theological writings that disagree with that opinion. |
You mean like this?
| The New Catholic Encyclopedia wrote: | | “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. |
They believe in the trinity, yet notice what they said. Hmm. 
| The New Catholic Encyclopedia wrote: | | “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296. |
So actually it is more then just my opinion. It is history. You can deny history and believe what you want.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Good, you present ONE side of the story and pretend that you made a point...
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Yea. Who needs history.
Especially when you can make your own. 
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RevJP"] | Quote: | | Somewhat different, yet the same. |
The only similarity is the number 3.
| Quote: |
quote]You are exactly correct. Most call it the Holy Bible. |
The bottom line is that there isn't one word in the Bible that justifies the Trinitarian concept of God. |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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You are correct Pete. There isn't ONE word in the bible, there are multitudes of words in the bible justifying the concept of the One True Triune God.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: |
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JP, why do you even bother responding? There is no research or intelligent dialogue in your responces. These last few responces you made here are childlike responses. It is like you are frustrated and just don't care anymore. I don't know if you ever did, but you are not even trying now.  You consistently say things you cannot back up and when you are presented with research or proof you shut down. Is this how you defend your beliefs? If your lack of effort is out of frustration why do you bother repsponding?
Don't mean to be personal, but you are not even trying anymore. You just like to show up to make nonproductive jabs with no substance.
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | You are correct Pete. There isn't ONE word in the bible, there are multitudes of words in the bible justifying the concept of the One True Triune God. |
I'm all ears. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP you claim the trinity is Biblical. Please give me chapter and verse that proves this claim. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | just don't care anymore |
You are absolutely correct.
| Quote: | | RevJP you claim the trinity is Biblical. Please give me chapter and verse that proves this claim. |
There are volumes of posts in this forum which already address this issue, and I personally don't care to take the time to rehash everything.
| Quote: |
You consistently say things you cannot back up and when you are presented with research or proof you shut down |
Actually, I was presented with one view, not research. If you wish to be honest in your assertions you would look at all sides of the issue and not simply cherry pick the one or two quotes that seem to support your claims. You say that 'history' supports you, yet you only present a decidedly selective portion of historical documents and ignore the rest as if they do not exist.
| Quote: | | You just like to show up to make nonproductive jabs with no substance |
You are right. The comments are probably unproductive. Y'all make false comments and I pointed out such. If you don't wish to be honest enough within yourselves to see the lack of veracity in your claims then I have no desire or energy to spin my wheels.
As you stated; I simply don't care anymore so continue your lying to your heart's content.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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JP,
| JP wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | (you)just don't care anymore |
You are absolutely correct. |
Obviously. So why do you respond when you have nothing to say? 
| JP wrote: | | Rocket wrote: | | RevJP you claim the trinity is Biblical. Please give me chapter and verse that proves this claim. |
There are volumes of posts in this forum which already address this issue, and I personally don't care to take the time to rehash everything.
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Yes. How crazy of him to try to discuss something on a forum. To ask you to back up something unfounded you said, well he is just plain evil isn't he? 
| JP wrote: | | Actually, I was presented with one view, not research. |
It takes research to find information my friend. You provided none. That information was from an organization that has a trinity bias, yet the information they reported showed the trinity developed after the first century.
| JP wrote: | | If you wish to be honest in your assertions you would look at all sides of the issue and not simply cherry pick the one or two quotes that seem to support your claims. You say that 'history' supports you, yet you only present a decidedly selective portion of historical documents and ignore the rest as if they do not exist. |
Here is the part where you could have shown historical support for your view, yet you didn't. History is quite clear about when the trinity developed and it is clear about what the first century Christians believed about God. Yet you like to close your eyes to history and believe a made up version.
History supports my view. Even this organization that believes (and actually incorperated into Christendom) the trinity recognised this history. I am sure there are thoelogians that will say the first century Christians believed a trinity, but that is not history, but the fiction they have created. Show me a historian that believes the 1st century Christians believed a trinity. I am pretty sure you will not put the effort forth to do that either, because you are lazy, and I think you know it is not true. But hey! An unfounded phrase works just as good, right?
| JP wrote: | | Y'all make false comments |
Yes, recognising what history says is making a false comment. Not supprising you said that considering you believe the trinity.
| JP wrote: | I have no desire or energy to spin my wheels.
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You also have no valid information to base your beliefs. I understand why you choose to run or make unfounded accusations. Like the following.
| JP wrote: | As you stated; I simply don't care anymore so continue your lying to your heart's content.
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Good one!
You are so low class.
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TBax |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
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So let us think a moment. I hope you have that ability.
Y'all assert that there is no biblical support for the trinity, and yet we see pages upon pages in this forum alone discussing the biblical support for the trinity. Not to mention the volumes of theological writings throughout history supporting the biblical concept of the triune God.
All of you have discussed this ad nauseum, all of you have been debating this, in this forum alone, for quite a while so you are fully aware that there is indeed biblical support for the trinity - and yet you claim there is none and then act as if you have never heard any of it before.
If you were honest, you could make the claim that you do not accept the interpretation of scripture that has been existent for 2000+ years that support the trinity, but that is not the claim we see repeated over and over again, is it? So the reality of things is this: You and yours lie. You do so blatantly and then act innocent and indignant when faced with the truth of your lack of integrity.
Now you have the opportunity to protest the unfairness of someone calling you a liar, and whine about how it is not right for a moderator to insult a board member or call them names. But until you can honestly say that you have never made false assertions (lies) then you are doing nothing more than proving your lack of integrity. You lie, you are liars, you are dishonest and you are disingenuous, and I shake the dust of you from my feet.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Rev JP, I do not lie. I do not believe sir, that you are lying either. All that we are trying to get across to you is that you have been lied too. Please RevJP, I'm not asking you I am on my knees begging you to try to understand what is being told to you.
I have read the Bible, from cover to cover, I have read the workings of a God that is so swesome in how He has dealt with His people. I have sat with my Bible in my lap with my mouth open in awe.
You have missed all this. You have! I'd like to see you find it.
I belonged to a Methodist church, I sang in the Choir, I taught Sunday school, using the preprinted lessons given me by the church, much the same as you learned it. Lessons from the church. Now I would like you to read the rest of the story. It's all history, true history. This is complicated and has to be searched in different places.
You must understand who Yeshua was as a Jewish man. He was, as Luke tells us, a baby, a Human baby. This baby grew to be a child, a child born to Jewish parents under the law. He learned Hebrew scriptures either from His mother or from a Rabbi. The ancient town of Nazareth has been unearthed by archeologists and it showed a town with perhaps 200 families, with no roots of a building large enough to use as a synogugage. Yeshua probably worked with His father Joseph, and was taught to read and write using scriptures. How Mary conceived Him is between her and God, I don't see that as the miracle, I see the fact that Mary lived to bear Yeshua as the miracle. Under Jewish law at that time, Joseph could have had her stoned to death for breaking her betrothal to him So, to understand Yeshua you should also understand what He believed, His faith, Judaism. Also, in this story are churchs created by Paul the Apostle to the gentiles. Gentiles to a Jew is anyone who wasn't Jewish and in this case the churches founded by Paul had Pagens as Parishners. This happened after Yeshua was crucified. There were also churches in Jerusalem headed by James the brother of Yeshua and Peter the leader of all the churhes in Isreael. These churches had Judaism as a background, Paul's church, as taught in acts did not have to convert to Judaism. So in the Second century huge argumnets arose from these two factions, and so when Constantine the new Empiror of the region took over, he didn't like the arguing and caused them to meet together at the council of Nicia in 325 AD. Constantine at the time was Pagen, a Pagen Romen soldier. He created the Universal church and anyone that disagreed was either exiled or killed. This is not a lie, this is fact. Pagens believe in trinities, even before Yeshua was born, and this trinity, taken from the biblical words, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is their trinity. These three are not mentioned as God's, they are thrown at you by pagen rituals and beliefs. |
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