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Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: This is a unique forum, Atheism.

Since I've never seen this board topic before at a religious site, I am compelled to say something! Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state? And can we be a Nation that practices separation of church and state and at the same time allow free speech even when it mentions religious values?

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject:

Sarahnn wrote:

Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state?

How about the fact that atheists are the least-trusted minority?

How about the fact that the issue of creation vs. evolution is an issue in schools?

How about this?

How about any number of other examples?

Sarahnn wrote:

And can we be a Nation that practices separation of church and state and at the same time allow free speech even when it mentions religious values?

I don't think you quite understand what separation of means. It's a restriction on endorsement—that is it is illegal for the government to endorse religion. Or make a religion the official religion. That sort of thing.

This isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, governments aren't individuals.

edit: fixed url tag
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Last edited by FFT on Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:08 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state?

How about the fact that atheists are the least-trusted minority?

Who is able to fix that? How does not being trusted compromise your Constitutional rights?

Quote:

How about the fact that the issue of creation vs. evolution is an issue in schools?

That is not about complaining. It is about jurisprudence and should be handled accordingly. Maybe when we get Bush out...it will be. Once again, however, it will be our Constitution in action.

Quote:

How about [url=http://www.parallelpac.org/murder.htm]this[/i]?

How about any number of other examples?

Well, now, don't go there. Are you saying our Constitution allows this? Of course not. Don't compare christian murderers with others. You have no case. A murderer is a murderer. The only ones I know of who support murderers rights are liberals.

Quote:

Sarahnn wrote:

And can we be a Nation that practices separation of church and state and at the same time allow free speech even when it mentions religious values?

Ask yourself why.

Quote:

This isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, governments aren't individuals.

Under the Constitution, we all have individual rights, not group privileges under the law.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject:

Sarahnn wrote:

Who is able to fix that? How does not being trusted compromise your Constitutional rights?

You asked if atheists had anything to complain about, not if Constitutional rights were being compromised. Please stick to what you've asked instead of shifting the goalposts when answered.

Sarahnn wrote:

That is not about complaining. It is about jurisprudence and should be handled accordingly. Maybe when we get Bush out...it will be. Once again, however, it will be our Constitution in action.

I find it distasteful. Again, it's something for which atheists have a legitimate complaint for, which is what you asked for.

Sarahnn wrote:

You've got a strange habit of completely ignoring the setting of the conversation.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Ask yourself why.

Why what? I know why the first amendment is the way it is. Should I be asking myself why you don't understand what separation of church and state means? I don't think that would be particularly fruitful.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

This isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, governments aren't individuals.

Under the Constitution, we all have individual rights, not group privileges under the law.

Yes. And?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Who is able to fix that? How does not being trusted compromise your Constitutional rights?

You asked if atheists had anything to complain about, not if Constitutional rights were being compromised. Please stick to what you've asked instead of shifting the goalposts when answered.

Let's look at my question again: Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state?

If I had left out the validation of separation of church and state, your whining about not being trusted would have been germane to my question. I take it you trust Christians.

FFT wrote:

Again, it's something for which atheists have a legitimate complaint for, which is what you asked for.

Let's look at what you said: How about the fact that the issue of creation vs. evolution is an issue in schools

Don't you want it to be an issue, so that we can ferret out religion from the State via our Constitution?

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

You've got a strange habit of completely ignoring the setting of the conversation.

I don't agree. I'm listening very carefully and you haven't said anything yet. You said that Athiests can complain about separation of church and state when an atheist is murdered. Are you saying that a Christian lunatic is violating the separation of church and state by killing an Atheist? That's pretty odd.

FFT wrote:

Should I be asking myself why you don't understand what separation of church and state means?

No, you should be asking yourself how your individual rights under the Constitution have been violated by any religious endorsement from the State?

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

This isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, governments aren't individuals.

Under the Constitution, we all have individual rights, not group privileges under the law.

Yes. And?

figger it out.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Who is able to fix that? How does not being trusted compromise your Constitutional rights?

You asked if atheists had anything to complain about, not if Constitutional rights were being compromised. Please stick to what you've asked instead of shifting the goalposts when answered.

Let's look at my question again: Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state?

And I pointed out that yes, there are things to "complain about." Just because the Constitution includes the establishment clause doesn't mean that the country actually 1. follows it or 2. is perfect about even things that aren't covered by the establishment clause.

And you didn't ask anything about the Constitution or Constitutional rights, it's merely data in the discussion. You asked if atheists had anything to complain about. They do.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Again, it's something for which atheists have a legitimate complaint for, which is what you asked for.

No, it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. Not-science has no place in science classes.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

You've got a strange habit of completely ignoring the setting of the conversation.

I don't agree. I'm listening very carefully and you haven't said anything yet.

Talking to yourself, then?

Sarahnn wrote:

You said that Athiests can complain about separation of church and state when an atheist is murdered.

Where did I say it was a violation of separation of church and state?

Sarahnn wrote:

Are you saying that a Christian lunatic is violating the separation of church and state by killing an Atheist? That's pretty odd.

Sure is. Good thing I didn't say it, then, isn't it?

I pointed it out as something to complain about, not as an example of violation of the establishment clause.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Should I be asking myself why you don't understand what separation of church and state means?

No, you should be asking yourself how your individual rights under the Constitution have been violated by any religious endorsement from the State?

The establishment clause isn't about individual rights being violated. If the governor of New Jersey makes Buddhism the official religion of New Jersey, my individual rights aren't touched. It's still a violation of the establishment clause.

But then, none of my examples were supposed to be what you now seem to be looking for. You asked what atheists had to complain about in a country with the establishment clause, I pointed out that there's plenty of things which don't necessarily have anything to do with the establishment clause.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

This isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, governments aren't individuals.

Under the Constitution, we all have individual rights, not group privileges under the law.

Yes. And?

figger it out.

Sorry, but this isn't a game, it's a discussion. Behave like an adult and then you'll be treated like one.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

And you didn't ask anything about the Constitution or Constitutional rights, it's merely data in the discussion. You asked if atheists had anything to complain about. They do.

If we play by your rules, everyone on the planet has something to complain about. Maybe we should stick to my original premise regarding the Constitution and separation of church and state.

Sarahnn wrote:

No, it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. Not-science has no place in science classes.

You are exactly right. And if we didn't have the Constitution, you'd be out of luck, now wouldn't ya?

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

You've got a strange habit of completely ignoring the setting of the conversation.

I don't agree. I'm listening very carefully and you haven't said anything yet.

Talking to yourself, then?

That comment wasn't constructive at all.

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

You said that Athiests can complain about separation of church and state when an atheist is murdered.

Where did I say it was a violation of separation of church and state?

Well, the separation of Church and State is the subject here and you said an Atheist being murdered is somehow related. I didn't bring it up.

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Are you saying that a Christian lunatic is violating the separation of church and state by killing an Atheist? That's pretty odd.

Sure is. Good thing I didn't say it, then, isn't it?

You brought it up.

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Should I be asking myself why you don't understand what separation of church and state means?

No, you should be asking yourself how your individual rights under the Constitution have been violated by any religious endorsement from the State?

If your rights aren't touched, and it isn't about individual rights, then why can't the Governor do that?

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

This isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, governments aren't individuals.

Under the Constitution, we all have individual rights, not group privileges under the law.

Yes. And?

figger it out.

Sorry, but this isn't a game, it's a discussion. Behave like an adult and then you'll be treated like one.

Does that mean you can't figger it out?

Ana
King of the Jungle

Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553

Location: BC

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints. _________________ Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject:

I like how you completely ignored this: "But then, none of my examples were supposed to be what you now seem to be looking for. You asked what atheists had to complain about in a country with the establishment clause, I pointed out that there's plenty of things which don't necessarily have anything to do with the establishment clause."

Sarahnn wrote:

If we play by your rules, everyone on the planet has something to complain about.

I was responding specifically in regard to atheism—like you asked.

Sarahnn wrote:

Maybe we should stick to my original premise regarding the Constitution and separation of church and state.

That didn't appear to be your original premise. Actually you don't have an original premise, you've a statement and two questions.

If you wanted things specific to the establishment clause you should have clarified at the beginning. And I've already pointed out that your lack of this clarification resulted in my responses.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

No, it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. Not-science has no place in science classes.

You are exactly right. And if we didn't have the Constitution, you'd be out of luck, now wouldn't ya?

So that's what this thread is for? So that people can post examples of violations and you to go "well hey it can be fixed!"? Looks pretty useless then.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

I don't agree. I'm listening very carefully and you haven't said anything yet.

Talking to yourself, then?

That comment wasn't constructive at all.

So you can dish it out, but you can't take it?

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

You said that Athiests can complain about separation of church and state when an atheist is murdered.

Where did I say it was a violation of separation of church and state?

Well, the separation of Church and State is the subject here and you said an Atheist being murdered is somehow related. I didn't bring it up.

That was not the subject, to read your first post, and I never said that it was related to the establishment clause.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Are you saying that a Christian lunatic is violating the separation of church and state by killing an Atheist? That's pretty odd.

Sure is. Good thing I didn't say it, then, isn't it?

You brought it up.

But you're adding context that wasn't present in the original post.

Sarahnn wrote:

If your rights aren't touched, and it isn't about individual rights, then why can't the Governor do that?

Because it's a violation of the establishment clause?

If you're talking about why the establishment clause exists, it's because establishing a national religion would go against everything the founding fathers stood for. It's because it would violate individuals' rights. It's just that the governor of New Jersey can't violate my individual rights doesn't mean individuals' rights wouldn't be violated. You asked how my individual rights have been violated by religious endorsement—they haven't. And it's not relevant.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

Sorry, but this isn't a game, it's a discussion. Behave like an adult and then you'll be treated like one.

Does that mean you can't figger it out?

Does that mean you don't know or that a learning disability prevents you from explaining it?

Stop playing games.

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

Precisely. Sarahnn has decided to frame the discussion with the ability to eliminate all "valid" complaints. Pretty ridiculous.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

First of all, I don't agree, Ana. But, secondly, how can an Atheist complain knowing that he is supported by the very foundation upon which our Country was established? Oh sure, we all have something to complain about, but I wasn't talking about general complaints. I was referring to complaining about those things which under the Constitution are covered to protect him. Atheists really don't have a leg to stand on. They are well-treated and do not have major obstacles to overcome because of their lack of religion anymore than a black, a woman, the physically challenged, or anyone else. They are protected under our Constitution just like the rest of us. They have a place to go if they are discriminated against and that is to the highest courts in the land. They have the ACLU.......they do not have any more reason to complain about this country than the average citizen.

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Quote:

IDoes that mean you can't figger it out?

Does that mean you don't know or that a learning disability prevents you from explaining it?

Stop playing games.

Read my post to Ana. I have declared my stance and stand by it. You are entitled to disagree.

Quote:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

Precisely. Sarahnn has decided to frame the discussion with the ability to eliminate all "valid" complaints. Pretty ridiculous.

I am still waiting for a complaint by an Atheist regarding how their rights are being violated and not covered for jurisprudence by the separation of church and state.

So far, I have no replies.

Ana
King of the Jungle

Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553

Location: BC

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject:

Sarahnn wrote:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

You asked:

Quote:

Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state?

You didn't mention the whole constitution - you only mentioned the separation of church and state (which a lot of people seem to think isn't even in the constitution, although I disagree with them). You didn't mention that the complaints you were asking about had to be about discrimination - you added that afterward too.

Quote:

I am still waiting for a complaint by an Atheist regarding how their rights are being violated and not covered for jurisprudence by the separation of church and state.

So far, I have no replies.

You haven't gotten that answer yet because this is the first time you've asked this question.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

You asked:

Quote:

Do Atheists really have anything to complain about in a country that officially endorses separation of church and state?

Quote:

I am still waiting for a complaint by an Atheist regarding how their rights are being violated and not covered for jurisprudence by the separation of church and state.

So far, I have no replies.

You haven't gotten that answer yet because this is the first time you've asked this question.

Look, I'm not going to feel sorry for you two because you can't come up with some answers. LOL

You seem to understand the concept, I shouldn't have to articulate what I am saying any further.

And, thanks for playing.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject:

Sarahnn wrote:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

First of all, I don't agree, Ana.

Then you don't know what you're talking about, or you're intentionally dismissing any evidence that doesn't agree with your beliefs.

Sarahnn wrote:

But, secondly, how can an Atheist complain knowing that he is supported by the very foundation upon which our Country was established?

Everyone in the country is supported by the Constitution. Therefore no one can ever have a legitimate complaint about anything. That's basically what what you're saying comes down to.

Sarahnn wrote:

Oh sure, we all have something to complain about, but I wasn't talking about general complaints.

Neither were my examples.

Sarahnn wrote:

Atheists really don't have a leg to stand on. They are well-treated and do not have major obstacles to overcome because of their lack of religion anymore than a black, a woman, the physically challenged, or anyone else.

FFT wrote:

How about the fact that atheists are the least-trusted minority?

So what, you're just not paying attention? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Some examples from that link:

"I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God." George H. W. Bush

Arkansas' Constitution of 1874 (Article 19, Section 1) states: "Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness. No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

South Carolina's Constitution (Article 6, Section 2) states: "Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

Tennessee's Constitution/Bill of Rights (Article 9, Section 2) states: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

Texas' Constitution: The Bill of Rights (Article I, Section 4) last amended on September 13, 2003 states that an official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

Basically I'm left with no conclusion but that you are actively ignoring evidence which conflicts with your beliefs. Or you're actively lying.

Sarahnn wrote:

I am still waiting for a complaint by an Atheist regarding how their rights are being violated and not covered for jurisprudence by the separation of church and state.

So far, I have no replies.

Because that was not your question. Would you like to apologize for your ommission so we can start over?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Sarahnn
Big Hamster

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Sarahnn wrote:

Ana wrote:

Sarahnn, it's pretty clear that despite the separation of church and state, and despite the whole constitution, atheists still have legitimate complaints.

First of all, I don't agree, Ana.

Then you don't know what you're talking about, or you're intentionally dismissing any evidence that doesn't agree with your beliefs.

Sarahnn wrote:

But, secondly, how can an Atheist complain knowing that he is supported by the very foundation upon which our Country was established?

Everyone in the country is supported by the Constitution. Therefore no one can ever have a legitimate complaint about anything. That's basically what what you're saying comes down to.

Sarahnn wrote:

Oh sure, we all have something to complain about, but I wasn't talking about general complaints.

Neither were my examples.

Sarahnn wrote:

FFT wrote:

How about the fact that atheists are the least-trusted minority?

Sarahnn wrote:

I am still waiting for a complaint by an Atheist regarding how their rights are being violated and not covered for jurisprudence by the separation of church and state.

So far, I have no replies.

Because that was not your question. Would you like to apologize for your ommission so we can start over?

I repeat: "I am still waiting for a complaint by an Atheist regarding how their rights are being violated and not covered for jurisprudence by the separation of church and state.

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