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remnant
Tadpole
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I hope my contribution to this discussion holds water. So far my understanding of the Bible is that when The Lord Jesus was crucified the passage in Mt 5:17-18 was fulfilled. That's why it was written in Rom 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
My understanding is that gentile like me can never be part of the 1st Covenant between God and the Israelites/Jews. I can never be under the laws and rituals to be purified to God. I can never be under the 10 Commandments of God because the 10 Commandments and all other laws and ordinances and the purification rituals were given to the Israelites/Jews only and not to the gentiles. The gentiles were excluded in this Covenant. No matter how much we claim we are whether partly or otherwise the Old Testament says we are not. I am a gentile.
My belief is that The Lord Jesus came and became the ultimate propitiatory sacrifice to include gentile like me to God's righteousness and to His Kingdom. So, He made the old system of laws and rituals - the 1st Covenant which was exclusive with the Israelites/Jews only - obsolete and redundant (Heb 10:9, 8:13). To include everyone to the plan of God He gave a new Commandment wherein all the essence of the 10 Commandments of loving God and loving neighbour was now condensed and transformed into loving one another as The Lord have loved us (Jn 13:34) because no one can claim that one loves God whom he cannot see if he cannot love his neighbour whom he can see (read Rom 13:8-10; Gal 5:14; 1Jn 4:7-21). And the 2nd or the New Covenant is a better covenant because He promised to give the Holy Spirit to guide us and help us to be obedient to God (Rom 8:1-17; Jn 14:23, 26:11-13).
I think for a Jew, one can either embrace the 1st or the Old Covenant or accept the Faith in Jesus Christ. However, even if one belongs to the faith but being a Jew one is still to observe the 7th day Sabbath (Heb 4:9-10) because it is a perpetual covenant between God and Israel/Jews to last forever (Ex 31:15-17).
For me a gentile who has faith in The Lord Jesus, I am not under law but under grace and rely solely in His Spirit to remain under grace, to help me manifest my faith into action. |
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free fall
Banned
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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That was an uplifting post Remnant.  |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| remnant wrote: | I I think for a Jew, one can either embrace the 1st or the Old Covenant or accept the Faith in Jesus Christ. However, even if one belongs to the faith but being a Jew one is still to observe the 7th day Sabbath (Heb 4:9-10) because it is a perpetual covenant between God and Israel/Jews to last forever (Ex 31:15-17).
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CHRISTIANS ARE TO ESTABLISH THE LORD'S DAY
The work of Sabbath reform to be accomplished in the last days, These words apply in the Christian age, is foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah: "Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for My salvation is near to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil." "The sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, everyone that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant; even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer." Isaiah 56:1, 2, 6, 7.
These words apply in the Christian age, as shown by the context: "The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him." Verse 8.
Here is foreshadowed the gathering in of the Gentiles by the gospel.
And upon those who then honor the Sabbath, a blessing is pronounced (Isaiah 56:2).
Thus the obligation of the fourth commandment extends past the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, to the time when His servants should preach to all nations the message of glad tidings.
The Lord commands by the same prophet: "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples." Isaiah 8:16.
The seal of God's law is found in the fourth commandment.
This only, of all the ten, brings to view both the name and the title of the Lawgiver.
It declares Him to be the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and thus shows His claim to reverence and worship above all others.
Aside from this precept, there is nothing in the 10 commandments, to show by whose authority the law is given.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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So we honor the Sabbath? Your Sunday Sabbath? Tell me by whose authority was the Sabbath day changed?
Explain to me, since Jesus was a Jew, teaching God's word, and God's word teaches we obey the ten commandment through His servant Jesus Christ, who then has the authority to change it.
Tell me please who gave the Catholic or Universal church Authority to present its people with a Pope, a replacement for Yeshua? The Pope is a man, elected by His peers to serve the Catholic church.
If I may speak bluntly, it must be a huge burden today to be saddled with these commandments. Thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not steal, oh my, in todays society it's the in thing to lie and steal. You just can't get rich if you don't, right? |
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remnant
Tadpole
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Isaiah, putting him in the right context and time frame, was sent to the Isrealites/Jews at his time to admonish and prophesy to his people not to the gentiles. Even The Lord was sent to His people and not to the gentiles (Mt 15:24). Even The Lord Himself sent His 12 apostles to the Isrealites/Jews and not to the gentiles (Mt 10:5-6). But what St. Paul said we, gentiles, were grafted in (Rom 11:17-20) because of the hard-heartedness of the Isrealites/Jews. We gentiles were the ones who found The Lord and open up our heart to Him by faith, through faith bringing the passage in Isaiah 65:1 in fulfillment with the admonition of The Lord in Mt 21:43 that "the Kingdom of God will be taken from the Israelites/Jews and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it" with what was written in Eph 3:6 "that the gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ..." But being grafted into the vine, claiming to be Christians, does not make us partakers of the 1st Covenant, partly or otherwise.
Aren't you glad that when The Lord brought in the New Covenant we were not subjected to any law except the Law of Love of loving one another as The Lord have loved us? We have liberty unlike the Israelites/Jews. We are free even as we believe in the same God of the Israelites/Jews through The Lord Jesus Christ (read 2 Cor 3:7-18, Col 2:14-23).
With the Spirit of God guiding us, directing us to be obedient to Him why complicate your faith? Why subject yourself to some law that He didn't subject you to, unless, you are a Jew? But what He wants us to subject to is to cultivate His Spirit in us for us to abide in Him and His words to abide in us (Jn 15:4,7; Col 3:1-2). But if in your conviction you want to observe the 7th day Sabbath because it helps your faith, give God the glory. I have nothing against anyone wanting to subject themselves to the law of Sabbath, what is important is we give God the glory. If I may paraphrase Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither observing the Sabbath or not avails anything but faith working through love. |
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RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| remnant wrote: | | Isaiah, putting him in the right context and time frame, was sent to the Isrealites/Jews at his time to admonish and prophesy to his people not to the gentiles. Even The Lord was sent to His people and not to the gentiles (Mt 15:24). |
Yet He healed many gentiles and in fact revealed Himself only to the Gentiles as the Messiah when He revealed Himself to the Samaritan woman at the well.
| Quote: | | Even The Lord Himself sent His 12 apostles to the Isrealites/Jews and not to the gentiles (Mt 10:5-6). |
You mean they never once proclaimed the Gospel to anyone but Jews?
| Quote: | | But what St. Paul said we, gentiles, were grafted in (Rom 11:17-20) because of the hard-heartedness of the Isrealites/Jews. We gentiles were the ones who found The Lord and open up our heart to Him by faith, through faith bringing the passage in Isaiah 65:1 in fulfillment with the admonition of The Lord in Mt 21:43 that "the Kingdom of God will be taken from the Israelites/Jews and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it" with what was written in Eph 3:6 "that the gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ..." But being grafted into the vine, claiming to be Christians, does not make us partakers of the 1st Covenant, partly or otherwise. |
So when Paul says that if we are Christ's we are also Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise. What promise did God give to Abraham?
| Quote: | | Aren't you glad that when The Lord brought in the New Covenant we were not subjected to any law except the Law of Love of loving one another as The Lord have loved us? |
What law do you suppose the Heavenly Father wote on our inward parts?
Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
| Quote: | | We have liberty unlike the Israelites/Jews. We are free even as we believe in the same God of the Israelites/Jews through The Lord Jesus Christ (read 2 Cor 3:7-18, Col 2:14-23). |
Free to break the law? Commit adultery? Steal? Lie? Make idols? Dishonor our parents? Are Christians free to do these things?
| Quote: | | With the Spirit of God guiding us, directing us to be obedient to Him why complicate your faith? |
Obedient to what? The vague notion of man's idea of what is God's love? How then was God's loving character ever revealed?
| Quote: | | Why subject yourself to some law that He didn't subject you to, unless, you are a Jew? |
Was Joseph a "Jew" when he refused to "sin" with Potiphar's wife by doing the boogeydown?
When God commands that even "strangers" were to do no work on His Holy Sabbath what did He exactly mean?
| Quote: | | But what He wants us to subject to is to cultivate His Spirit in us for us to abide in Him and His words to abide in us (Jn 15:4,7; Col 3:1-2). |
Classic pantheism. Man centered and not God centered.
| Quote: | | But if in your conviction you want to observe the 7th day Sabbath because it helps your faith, give God the glory. I have nothing against anyone wanting to subject themselves to the law of Sabbath, what is important is we give God the glory. If I may paraphrase Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither observing the Sabbath or not avails anything but faith working through love. |
Indeed! Praise for ever to God the Father and Jesus Christ for never abolishing or removing His sacred and Holy sabbath from us and allowing us to congregate into a Holy Convocation and to remember His completing His wonderful work of creation and allowing us to be a part of it!
Praise be to the Most High God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob!
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
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remnant
Tadpole
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forgive me RND it looks like you do not want to advance, to grow for it says in Galatians 3:24 that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. v.25 But the faith has come we are no longer under a tutor, for the law is not of faith v.12. Forgive me to assume that you have not known nor experienced what the promised Holy Spirit is in your life.
We are looking at our belief in a different plane or dimention. You are looking at it through the written law of God and I, being aware of my position as a gentile, look at it through the mercy and grace of having faith in Christ. Your experience of observing the written law is different from my experience of being led by the Spirit of God of which you accuse me of being a pantheist. And having this difference of experience is futile in convincing each other of who is right. I think there will be no agreement until The Lord returns to reveal the whole truth and so what St. Paul said we are looking through the glass darkly is true. But I think we both agree that all glory, honour, and power belong to The Father God Almighty and to The Lord Jesus Chist. Amen.
You are right in quoting that passage that the law is now written in our heart. But it has meaning only if we have the Spirit of God in us. It is the Spirit that will break the curse and the habitual sin from us. The law that is written in our heart becomes part and parcel of our life, we automatically practice it in our life without being aware of it. It comes from within us. We know this is true because our conscience is the judge.
I think that's the difference between believing with observing the Commandments by yourself and believing with the Spirit leading you by faith in Christ.
Again, RND, forgive me if I offend you somehow with this post. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ...amen remnant.. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| remnant wrote: | Forgive me RND it looks like you do not want to advance, to grow for it says in Galatians 3:24 that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. v.25 But the faith has come we are no longer under a tutor, for the law is not of faith v.12. Forgive me to assume that you have not known nor experienced what the promised Holy Spirit is in your life.
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Then, you believe Jesus was wrong when He said this:
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| remnant wrote: | | Forgive me RND |
OK, you're forgiven!
| Quote: | | it looks like you do not want to advance, to grow for it says in Galatians 3:24 that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. v.25 But the faith has come we are no longer under a tutor, for the law is not of faith v.12. |
Should we sin more then so grace abounds? If you understand the notion that the law is not for the righteous but the unrighteous then you'll do fine. The righteous don't break the law right?
# 1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Gee, remnant, that Paul sure did seem awful "judgmental" sometimes.
| Quote: | | Forgive me to assume that you have not known nor experienced what the promised Holy Spirit is in your life. |
You're forgiven. Besides, you know what they say you make yourself out to be when you assume something.
I praise the Holy Spirit, God the Father and Jesus Christ for leading me to the truth about God's perfect, holy and just law.
| Quote: |
We are looking at our belief in a different plane or dimention. You are looking at it through the written law of God and I, being aware of my position as a gentile, look at it through the mercy and grace of having faith in Christ. |
Funny, I thought the Bible was fairly clear that there is no more Jew or Greek but all under Christ? I think it's somewhere around here. Oh yeah, right here:
Galatians 3: 28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Too bad you didn't keep reading!
| Quote: | | Your experience of observing the written law is different from my experience of being led by the Spirit of God of which you accuse me of being a pantheist. |
Actually, I try to follow the "spirit" of the law and not the "letter" of the law.
You know, like the one where Christ said if your angry at you brother for no reason then you're guilty of murder. That's even worse than straight out killing someone.
| Quote: | | And having this difference of experience is futile in convincing each other of who is right. |
Oh, I don't care if I'm right or not. Just concerned that some might be trying to make the scriptures say something they don't, that's all.
| Quote: | | I think there will be no agreement until The Lord returns to reveal the whole truth and so what St. Paul said we are looking through the glass darkly is true. |
Oh, I'm in agreement with what the scriptures say. How about you?
| Quote: | | But I think we both agree that all glory, honour, and power belong to The Father God Almighty and to The Lord Jesus Chist. Amen. |
And truth, Amen!
| Quote: | | You are right in quoting that passage that the law is now written in our heart. But it has meaning only if we have the Spirit of God in us. |
Really? So you don't believe God can keep his word? You see, before I became a Christian I knew it was wrong to steal, but I did it anyway. But I did know it was wrong. Now, how did I know it was wrong if God hadn't written it on my heart?
| Quote: | | It is the Spirit that will break the curse and the habitual sin from us. The law that is written in our heart becomes part and parcel of our life, we automatically practice it in our life without being aware of it. |
3 our's and a we! Gee, that sounds like hubris to me.
If it's true that "we automatically practice it in our life without being aware of it" why pray tell is there still so much sin in the world? Why do we get angry with our brother for no reason during our commute? Or at the grocery store?
| Quote: | | It comes from within us. We know this is true because our conscience is the judge. |
I don't know if you are aware of this (I suspect not) but this again is a purely man-centered, Pantheistic remark.
We can do nothing apart from Christ. Nothing.
| Quote: | | I think that's the difference between believing with observing the Commandments by yourself and believing with the Spirit leading you by faith in Christ. |
Ah, I see how things work. If I'm observing and conscious of the law I must be doing it alone, on my own. But if I'm ignoring the law and doing my "own thing" then I must be filled with the spirit. 
| Quote: | | Again, RND, forgive me if I offend you somehow with this post. |
No offense taken. Just sadness. I'll pray for you.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps something that the Prophet Daniel said may be of benefit to the topic under discussion....regarding the Law of Moses being abolished.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...."
This should shed some light on what was abolished at the Cross of Calvary.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Christopher_John
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: In Perfect Clarity |
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| remnant wrote: | I hope my contribution to this
For me a gentile who has faith in The Lord Jesus, I am not under law but under grace and rely solely in His Spirit to remain under grace, to help me manifest my faith into action. |
This is the exact teaching of the Bible concerning the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ.
For we gentiles were in a world without hope and without God under the Mosaic Law.
Ephesians 2:12
"that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
We now are brought nearer to the covenants of promise with Israel by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
But Christ is our peace who tears down the wall of partition (The Mosaic Law) between Jew and Gentile creating one new man in the body of Christ, Jew/Gentile.
Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,.
So to enforce the Mosaic Law you then re-install the wall of partition between yourself and the commonwealth of Israel from which all blessings and salvation flows. For Salvation is from the Jews.
But "In Christ" the wall of partition which alienates Gentiles from the promises of Israel (including Salvation) is torn down having "abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances".
Ephesians 2:15
having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
Thus reconciling unto God both Jew and Gentile.
Ephesians 2:16
and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The biblical verses which define those respecting the Mosaic Law in the New Testament do so under their own authority and enforce not the Mosaic Laws on others, that was the message Paul was preaching although even Cephas was short sighted on this issue who Paul confronted in Galatians 2: 11-21 over submission to the Mosaic Law.
One may follow the Mosaic Laws but must keep in mind that there is a danger if one maintains the idea by doing so that he or she is contributing to ones own justification or sanctification, there is no other substitution for atonement other than faith in Christ. In other words if you want to follow the Mosaic Law, fine, just don't preach it, let your works demonstrate your faith but by no means do not chastize or belittle those who choose not to follow the Mosaic Law because you will bring condemnation upon yourself as we are now under the New Covenant of Messiah.
The Law of Christ, so yes if you kill or commit adultery under the New Covenant you commit sin but it is not the Mosaic Law you have transgressed but it is the Law of Christ under the New Covenant that you have broken.
If you are a Jewish believer and you eat pork you have not committed any form of sin because you are now under the law of Christ and not under the Mosaic law, it's not what a man puts in his mouth that makes him unclean, it's what proceeds from his mouth that makes him unclean.
In Christ
CJ
Last edited by Christopher_John on Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3312
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Good post, CJ. Welcome to the board.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Christopher_John
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | Good post, CJ. Welcome to the board.
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Thx for the warm welcome MoJo
Peace
CJ |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:44 am Post subject: Re: In Perfect Clarity |
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| Christopher_John wrote: | If you are a Jewish believer and you eat pork you have not committed any form of sin because you are now under the law of Christ and not under the Mosaic law, it's not what a man puts in his mouth that makes him unclean, it's what proceeds from his mouth that makes him unclean.
In Christ
CJ |
Hi CJ,
I have a question for you.
In light of what you say in the above......how do you understand Isaiah 66:15-17 ?
66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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