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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 & 2 Thess 2:1-12 |
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Anyone ever notice that the language used in each of these passages is very similar. They seem to refer to the same event, as they both use the phrase "coming of the Lord" to refer to the event described. And if so then the "caught up together" or "gathered together" event does not occur until after "the rebellion" has taken place.
I would be interested to see how the pretrib view handles the 2 Thess passage. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2563
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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1 Thessalonians 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sounds to me just like pre-trib should be.
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| That's not from 2 Thess. Also what does wrath mean? Is there a difference between wrath and tribulation? |
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm actually being serious about this, I really am interested in how the pretrib view responds to the connection between these two passages.
The 1 Thess. passages doesn't place the event in a chronological context, but it seems as though in 2 Thess Paul goes back to this same topic to describe the same event and does place it within a chronological context (a context that seems to exclude the possibility of a pretrib view). My question is sincere, how does the pretrib view reconcile these two texts? |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Greetings Schuck,
Are you talking about the rapture theory, the catching away before tribulation?
In Christ, Judy |
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: |
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yeah. My question is how does the pretrib view support their rapture timeline given that the 1 Thess passage does not contain a context placing it in relation to any other eschatological events? The context of the event is later supplied in 2 Thess when a fuller explain is made by Paul.
2:3 | Quote: | | "For that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first" |
How can they maintain a two coming (rapture & 2nd coming) timeline given Paul's clarification of these events in 2 Thess?
This is a very important point because the whole idea of the "rapture" begins in the 1 Thess passage. |
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Schuckdaddy wrote: | yeah. My question is how does the pretrib view support their rapture timeline given that the 1 Thess passage does not contain a context placing it in relation to any other eschatological events? The context of the event is later supplied in 2 Thess when a fuller explaination is made by Paul.
2:3 | Quote: | | "For that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first" |
How can they maintain a two coming (rapture & 2nd coming) timeline given Paul's clarification of these events in 2 Thess?
This is a very important point because the whole idea of the "rapture" begins in the 1 Thess passage. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings Schuck,
To me the Thessalonians verses go more along with I Corinthians chapter 13 than with a rapture theory.
And as far as I can see there is not necessarily an escape of tribulation for any believer.
Revelation 7:9, "After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands:"
Revelation 7:14, "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. and he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them whiite in the blood of the Lamb."
All saints endure persecution for the gospels sake, it is our honor and joy to die in Christ.
"All who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution"
In Christ, Judy |
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I absolutely agree with you that these verses have nothing to do with rapture. I reject even the language of rapture because I think it causes too much confusion. There is a single event told of in scripture: "the coming of the Lord". Within that event is this moment we see in 1 Thess where those who are dead and those who are alive are "caught up together". That is what I believe now. However I was raised to believe in a pretrib view and the lessons I was taught always were based in the first text. But I never heard anyone from the pretrib view ever compare these two passages and make a case for the pretrib view. I would be interested to hear that views justification for their timeline based on these two texts.
...I'm waiting for a good argument to be posed... |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2563
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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This issue of tribulation is something that I have addressed in other forums and it seems needs me to clarify again for this one.
Rev6;16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
The great tribulation at the coming of the Lord is God's wrath: not "natural" disaster, worldy wrath, or even Satan's wrath. Yes God wrote that everyone suffers tribulation, and we do suffer this daily, but not the same "wrath of God" those unsaved suffer.
Only fools willfully desire or try and survive it. We know from Isaiah 53 that Christ suffered God's wrath on the cross, and by extension those still on the Earth at that time will suffer the same wrath Jesus suffered. Because only the unsaved will be around to suffer it.
Those people who are saved, are part of the 'body of Christ," and that body has already suffered for their sins. The only way to avoid this "great tribulation" is through rapture/caught away if you will, written about in Thessalonians
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Christ suffered God's wrath on the cross, and by extension those still on the Earth at that time will suffer the same wrath Jesus suffered. Because only the unsaved will be around to suffer it. |
Your argument only works if wrath can't be localized.
In other words what would keep God from protecting his people from wrath while they were still present on earth?
If Christ suffered wrath on the cross in a localized fashion what would prevent God from pouring out his wrath on sinful humankind while protecting his elect who dwell on earth? Couldn't God do that?
I agree that believers will be spared from wrath but that doesn't necessitate a rapture to accomplish that goal.
Check the context. When does the catching up occur within the context of 2 Thess. 2? After the rebellion after the lawless one is killed.
1 Thess & 2 Thess
Same wording same audience same author. |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Wrath |
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| Quote: | In other words what would keep God from protecting his people from wrath while they were still present on earth?
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Good point.
| Quote: | | The only way to avoid this "great tribulation" is through rapture/caught away if you will, written about in Thessalonians |
If this true then we have a big problem bc you see according to scripture, The "great tribulation" occurs at the 5th seal. The "catching away" of the saints occur at the last or 7th trumpet sound which is a part of the 7th seal.
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Just my thoughts
Pato |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3239
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| pato wrote: | | If this true then we have a big problem bc you see according to scripture, The "great tribulation" occurs at the 5th seal. The "catching away" of the saints occur at the last or 7th trumpet sound which is a part of the 7th seal. |
Very good point, pato. If you don't mind though, I'd like to add a couple of refinements. First of all, there is no **the** great tribulation. The bible never uses that expression; it just says great tribulation.
Secondly, at the fifth seal, these have come out of great tribulation; therefore this great tribulation was happening sometime before the fifth seal and perhaps through the fifth seal as they await their fellow brethern.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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shuckdaddy wrote:
| Quote: | | In other words what would keep God from protecting his people from wrath while they were still present on earth? |
Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
2Cr 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
tribulation:
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
what is the great tribulation?
or rather the tribulations?
and why did Jesus tell Paul he must suffer for his names sake?
2Cr 11:5 ¶ For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2Cr 11:6 But though [I be] rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
2Cr 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
2Cr 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.
2Cr 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself].
2Cr 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2Cr 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
2Cr 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2Cr 11:16 ¶ I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
2Cr 11:17 That which I speak, I speak [it] not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
2Cr 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Cr 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye [yourselves] are wise.
2Cr 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour [you], if a man take [of you], if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2Cr 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
2Cr 11:22 ¶ Are they Hebrews? so [am] I. Are they Israelites? so [am] I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so [am] I.
2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 
2Cr 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.
2Cr 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Cr 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;
2Cr 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Cr 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Cr 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Cr 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
2Cr 11:32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
2Cr 11:33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
2Th 1:3 ¶ We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
tribulation is a reward for those who do wickedness.
And after they have been tried they come through washed and purified..through fire..
I was thinking about Legion and how the Lord told them to go into the swine and they ran over the hill and was drowned in the sea...
thinking they was hmm baptised and came out clean and that why the Lord told Peter that whatsoever the Lord hath cleansed call that thou not unclean.
So Saul came through a lot in order to earn his name Paul that the Lord gave him..a new stone...
Spoke as a dragon..and was burned up in the fire never to be seen again...Saul's all gone.
and I believe we all get tried through tribulations which works patience...
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If John didn't escape tribulation and found patience....
then why do they say that we shall escape it?
The only way to escape tribulation is to keep the commandment..
see below..
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
who are those who have washed their robes? who wears robes?
2Sa 13:18 And [she had] a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters [that were] virgins apparelled. Then his servant brought her out, and bolted the door after her.
Eze 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at [every] moment, and be astonished at thee.
Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
maybe hell is God's wrath..hmm..
the fire that purifies seven times...
2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
what do you think Paul means by in deaths oft?
hey just tossin..
hugs
lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: Trib |
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| Quote: | | what do you think Paul means by in deaths oft? |
Probably all those stonings he had the one time he was left for dead, and that time he was floating around in the ocean for three days.
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Just my thoughts
Pato |
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