Unorthodox Christian

METGAT · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:25 am Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

I was baptised a Catholic 66 years ago, fell away from the Church during my 30s, tried some Protestant demoninations but found them even more unsatisfactory. I still consider myself a Christian, if an unorthodox one. I cannot accept orthodoxy's belief that we are "saved" simply by "knowing" Christ, whatever that means. I would like to suggest a hypothetical situation and request feedback as to how others see salvation for the two men.

Here is the situation: Twin brother in their early 20s embark on a life of crime. With total disregard for others, they steal, rape, and murder. During one crime, one of the brothers is killed, the other captured and sent to prison for life. While in prison that brother is "born again," i.e., finds Jesus.

If the first brother is damned to the fires of hell for all eternity and the second one is "saved" and will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven, isn't God being very unjust?
I cannot reconcile that outcome with a fair, just, and loving God. I know what the Bible says and can only conclude that the authors didn't clearly state what they intended or that it has been mistranslated and/or distorted over the centuries. I would appreciate other views. Mike

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Zathrus · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:55 am Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

You asked for other views...

I think the issue of salvation has to be looked at in the covanental context of when the new testament was written. In the 1st century, there was a choice between remaining under the old covanent and seeking righteousness by works of the law, and being under the new covanent and receiving righteousness as a free gift through Jesus Christ.

The big issue never has been Christ vs. immorality. It was Christ vs. justification by works.

As of the destruction of the temple in AD70, the last remnants of the old covanent religious order have been destroyed. Now what choice remains?

Note: I don't take a hard and fast stance on this idea, but over the last several years of asking myself questions like this, it makes more and more sense.

METGAT · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:21 pm Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

Zathrus, thank you for your thoughtful reply. When we get to the subject of "works" we run into other issues. Does God reward someone who, let's say, peformed 51 good works vs 49 "bad" deeds and punish the person who performed 49 good works and 51 bad deeds? Therein, as I see it is the whole problem with the orthodox Christian view. It wants to classify everyone as either "righteous" or "wicked," whereas most of us are somewhere in between and a whole lot of people right in the middle. That is why I believe that the afterlife has many realms ("My Father's house has many mansions". That is why I believe there is a "purgatory," although it is not what the Catholic Church made it out to be, i.e., a place very similar to hell but not eternal. It is a plan of spiritual evolution in that we can advance from a particular realm to a higher one until we finally reach the Godhead, or true heaven.

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Phinehas · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:08 pm Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

quote:
Originally posted by METGAT:
I cannot accept orthodoxy's belief that we are "saved" simply by "knowing" Christ, whatever that means.

Actually, there are a number of verses that support the idea of "knowing" Christ as crucial to salvation. Paul does say at Romans 10:9, "...if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." But consider that we must work out our salvation (Philippians 2:12).

God has given salvation to us upon our heartfelt (Romans 10:10) confession, but now we must work it out. What does that mean? People will have different views, but I believe that it has two parts: (1) literally doing good works (James 2:17), not as a means of salvation, but as a result of it; and (2) getting to know, personally and intimately, Jesus. The Gospels have some interesting things to say about knowing Jesus:
Matthew 25:12
Luke 13:25-28
Luke 22:34
John 8:32 (Who is the truth?)
John 17:3
(John 14:17)
(John 15:21)

For a great understanding of what it means to know Christ and of its importance, I highly recommend getting five or ten other believers together to do the workbook (as opposed to the regular book) entitled, "Experiencing God" by Henry Blackaby. My Bible study group did it and it has changed not only our group, but also the way our church operates.

quote:
Originally posted by METGAT:
...If the first brother is damned to the fires of hell for all eternity and the second one is "saved" and will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven, isn't God being very unjust? I cannot reconcile that outcome with a fair, just, and loving God.

Key points:
God's ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9).
God knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him (John 6:64). He knows everything each one of us will do and will not do before we do it or don't do it. It could very well be that God knew that the brother that died and fried wasn't ever going to get saved anyway. What's more, the brother that died, had he survived, may have gone on to commit far more heinous crimes, which God would have known.

This is not in support of predestination, to which I do not ascribe, which is that God determintes beforehand who will accept Him and who will reject Him. I'm simply pointing out that God knows who will and who won't.

In your example, you mentioned that both brothers had committed many evil deeds. Does not God promise to punish evil doers? Remember that we all deserve eternal separation from God (death), for the wages of sin is death.

The final point is that we live in a fallen world. Sin abounds; diseases spread; accidents happen. See Luke 12:13-21. None of us can know when our time will come to leave this world. If we did, we could all lead sinful lives and make deathbed confessions of faith.

Shalom,
Phin

[This message has been edited by Phinehas (edited 01-09-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Phinehas (edited 01-09-2003).]

Phinehas · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:20 pm Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

quote:
Originally posted by METGAT:
Does God reward someone who, let's say, peformed 51 good works vs 49 "bad" deeds and punish the person who performed 49 good works and 51 bad deeds? Therein, as I see it is the whole problem with the orthodox Christian view. It wants to classify everyone as either "righteous" or "wicked," whereas most of us are somewhere in between...

Justification, as Zathrus was pointing out, does not rely on works. Justification and salvation have nothing, zip, zilch, nada to do with works, good or bad. Remember, just one sin is enough to justify sending us to Hell--any of us. So it really doesn't matter how many good vs. bad works you have. Only in Islam is salvation dependent on (literally, I'm not joking) placing one's good deeds on one side of a balance scale and one's bad deeds on the other side. Once we believe in and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, HIS righteousness is imparted to us. (Can I get an "amen"?) The whole point is that there isn't any one of us who can do it on our own.

Regarding the "Church" classifying all people as either wicked or righteous, I would caution anyone who is a Christian from boasting about their righteousness because it ain't theirs--it's Christ's.

Regarding purgatory, remember that the only good doctrine is one supportable by scripture. Purgatory is not a "house." In fact, I'll bet that, with a little research, you could find out exactly when the doctrine of purgatory was started.

Nobby · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 2:13 pm Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

by Phinehas

Can I get an "amen"?)
You got it Bro. "Amen"

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:43 pm Post subject: Unorthodox Christian

quote:
Originally posted by Phinehas:
Justification, as Zathrus was pointing out, does not rely on works. Justification and salvation have nothing, zip, zilch, nada to do with works, good or bad.

Precisely! METGAT, God has made you completely, 100% righteous, without sin, not through anything you've done, but because of what Jesus has done.

quote
Quote:

Originally posted by Phinehas: Once we believe in and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, HIS righteousness is imparted to us. (Can I get an "amen"?)

AMEN!!! And praise God!