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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:11 am Post subject: Are Homosexuals a People? |
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One of the definitions for being a "people" is a common shared inherited characteristic, such as being born human. The decendents of Abraham are called a people. Some advocates of acceptance of homosexual behavior call homosexuals a people.
Underlying this assertion is the idea that people who engage in homosexual behavior were born pre-disposed to that behavior. They were attracted to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex from birth. But is the assertion true? Could a person attracted to the same sex early in life, change in order to have an opportunity to produce children, but then, rather than fulfill the natural committment to raise and care for the child into young adulthood, go back to satisfying themselves at the expense of the community? Are they a people or are they reprobates, putting their desire for physical pleasure above the needs of the community.
Usually those advocating homosexual behavior talk about some who engage in lifelong committments and do not sleep around. But do such people actually exist in significant numbers, or is it a myth based on a tiny fraction of those that engage in homosexual behavior. The spread of Aids among homosexuals indicates that many homosexuals engage in sex with as many partners as they can find. Some women were infected by men who engaged in sex with men and women, again pointing to the desire for physical pleasure above committment to any person or any sex.
Where do you draw the line between tolerating individual behavior and advocating behaviors that nuture the family, and thus the community?
God has told us His view, but what do the pagans think?
Final thought, does being pre-disposed to a characteristic behavior, such as being attracted to blond girls in scanty bathing suits, mean that I am a people, or just human with a human flaw? |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Are Homosexuals a People? |
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| Van wrote: | | such as being attracted to blond girls in scanty bathing suits, mean that I am a people, or just human with a human flaw? |
Where's the flaw in that image? 
On the other hand, I'd say " a people" means pretty much;
peo·ple [ pé'ep’l ]
noun (plural peo·ples)
nation: a nation, community, ethnic group or nationality
So, yes, homosexuals could be considered "a people", as they could be considered a community.
I nor advocate, nor condemn, any sexual behaviour between two (or more) consenting adults. Whatever their sexual preference might be, it's not up to me to judge, if they feel they can justify their sexuality for whomever they have chosen to profess to, is their choice.
Trying to explain why HIV/AIDS is more prevalent among homosexuals, and IDU's [Injecting Drug User].
HIV/AIDS is a bloodborne disease. It is much more likely to to be transmitted anally, and by sharing needles among IUD's, than vaginally.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Point by point:
| Quote: | | Underlying this assertion is the idea that people who engage in homosexual behavior were born pre-disposed to that behavior. |
This is a gross generalization, and I do not believe anyone here has promoted this idea. There are many people who engage in homosexual activity who are not naturally inclined to be homosexual. This point has been made abundantly clear on this site in the arguments regarding the bibles view of homosexual activity being a sin when it was contrary to the nature of those engaging in it.
Are there those whose natural orientation is attraction to the same sex? Who were born homosexual? Yes, I believe so. Does this mean that everyone who engages in homosexual activity falls into this category?
No. Obviously not.
| Quote: | | Could a person attracted to the same sex early in life, change in order to have an opportunity to produce children, but then, rather than fulfill the natural committment to raise and care for the child into young adulthood, go back to satisfying themselves at the expense of the community? |
I am unclear as to what you are suggesting. Are you saying that there are homosexuals, who have had sex with the opposite sex just for the reason of breeding, and then have abandoned their children and gone back to their homosexuality? I find this hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that anyone would go out of thier way to have children and then abondon those children once they have them. If you have evidence of this please share.
| Quote: | | Usually those advocating homosexual behavior talk about some who engage in lifelong committments and do not sleep around. But do such people actually exist in significant numbers, or is it a myth based on a tiny fraction of those that engage in homosexual behavior. |
I would suggest that the numbers of true homosexuals are significant enough in that they exists. If there are 500 true homosexual couples in the world and 5000 people engaging in homosexual activity against their nature, how would that in any way detract from the truth of the committed homosexual partnerships?
| Quote: | | The spread of Aids among homosexuals indicates that many homosexuals engage in sex with as many partners as they can find. Some women were infected by men who engaged in sex with men and women, again pointing to the desire for physical pleasure above committment to any person or any sex. |
I cannot believe you actually posted this. I have believed you to be a rather intelligent individual, usually you post well reasoned and well researched points of view. This.... I am disgusted and offended.
The early spread of HIV and AIDS was indeed most prevalent among homosexuals because of the nature of the blood and fluid transmission of the virus and the act of sodomy. Since the early 90's however, this has changed. To date the most widespread populations of the disease are IV drug users and hetrosexuals, as they are mistakenly led to believe that it is a homosexual disease and therefore do not have themselves tested and engange in acts that are highly at risk, carrying and spreading the disease without even knowing it.
The US is about the only country in the world whose homosexual population was the focal population for the spread of the disease, worldwide it is mainly a hetrosexual disease.
| Quote: | Where do you draw the line between tolerating individual behavior and advocating behaviors that nuture the family, and thus the community?
God has told us His view, but what do the pagans think? |
I draw the line at where it is any of my business, and what others do in their bedroom is not my business. As far as advocating behaviors that nurture the family, I would suggest that seperatism, biggotry, condemnation of others, and promotion of hate and fear, are not behaviors that nurture anyone or anything.
If I were to suggest railing against behaviors that do not nurture the family or the community I would start by closing down the bars, the strip clubs, the gambling houses, the porn shops, professional sporting events, etc. Anywhere that a person is influenced to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, spend time away from one's family, or spend resources better used for the edification of the family or community.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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There is only one people: the human race. Homosexuals are part of us. They're not a them that we should consider separate from ourselves.
I may find aspects of the lifestyle of gays to be distasteful, but they are fellow human beings and deserve dignity and respect, as all human beings do. |
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Dwarf
Ferret
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder why you don't see any homosexual animals. If it's a natural occurence and they can't help it...shouldn't there be homosexual activity with animals as well? Ofcourse not, because homosexuality is not a natural occurence that someone is born with; it's a choice.
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dwarf wrote: | | I wonder why you don't see any homosexual animals. If it's a natural occurence and they can't help it...shouldn't there be homosexual activity with animals as well? Ofcourse not, because homosexuality is not a natural occurence that someone is born with; it's a choice. |
You have obviously not been around at a farm, or many animals for that matter, by stating that.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | If I were to suggest railing against behaviors that do not nurture the family or the community I would start by closing down the bars, the strip clubs, the gambling houses, the porn shops, professional sporting events, etc. Anywhere that a person is influenced to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, spend time away from one's family, or spend resources better used for the edification of the family or community. |
More on the topic of this forum, would you continue the battle against those who destroy the family to include the gay/lesbian activists? This front has done so much damage to the family by penetrating every level of government and shutting the door on anyone with a different point of view by claiming racism, hate, intolerance, judgmental, etc.
So would you go to battle against these forces as well? Because I certainly have no problem with your list. It just fails to include this particular group.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Just a minor point concerning the spread of AIDs. The HIV virus of one person is spread to another by the mixing of HIV infected bodily fluid (blood, spit, semen) into the blood system of an uninfected person. Sharing of contaminated (with HIV virus) needles transmits the HIV virus. Getting blood or blood products from a contaminated blood bank is another way. But, for the purpose of this discussion HIV is a sexually transmitted illness. When the semen of an infected person is deposited within the anus of a non infected person, the HIV virus makes its way into the blood system of the receptor. Transmission less frequently happens if the blood of the receptor is HIV and there is a path, such as a sore (perhaps from another sexually transmitted illness) or raw area on the penis of the non-infected person.
The illness cannot be transmitted sexually to a couple that only has sex with one another. So the illness is transmitted sexually by having sex with more than one partner or sex with someone who has had sex with one or more other people. The illness is more likely to be transmitted anally than vaginally. The reason the illness did not spread in America like it is doing in Africa is unknown but here are the guesses:
Anal sex is practiced by a significantly larger fraction of the culture.
The medical facilities are not as sterile as America facilities.
The number of other, rather than same, partner sexual encounters is higher in Africa. And as I said, whether none, one, two or all three actually explain the difference is unknown.
In summary the illness was spread sexually primarily by male homosexual activity in America because the combination of multiple partners and anal sex is a deadly high risk activity. It is like throwing one down the middle to Barry Bonds, it may not get hit out, but the odds are high. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Are Homosexuals a People? |
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| Van wrote: | | Underlying this assertion is the idea that people who engage in homosexual behavior were born pre-disposed to that behavior. They were attracted to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex from birth. But is the assertion true? |
Yes. It is believed much of personality development, including that of one's "love map"--identification of the categories of persons toward which one is attracted--is established prior to Kindergarten age.
| Quote: | | Could a person attracted to the same sex early in life, change in order to have an opportunity to produce children, but then, rather than fulfill the natural committment to raise and care for the child into young adulthood, go back to satisfying themselves at the expense of the community? |
That's an unfortunate characterization because it is not so that to be homosexual is in any way "at the expense of the community" but bisexuality has degrees. Some of it varies temporally over a lifetime. BTW, many gays and lesbians are right now raising biological children, so it does not follow that to be homosexual in any way affects one's commitment to childrearing.
| Quote: | | Are they a people or are they reprobates, putting their desire for physical pleasure above the needs of the community. |
The concept of gays/lesbians as "a people" has merit in that they constitute a cultural grouping. However, to be gay is more about love and less about sex in general. And it cannot be established that such "harms" the community.
| Quote: | | Usually those advocating homosexual behavior talk about some who engage in lifelong committments and do not sleep around. But do such people actually exist in significant numbers, or is it a myth based on a tiny fraction of those that engage in homosexual behavior. |
It's certainly no myth. Of course it is well known that promiscuity is a problem among LGBTQs. In part this is a reaction to oppression. a positive counter to this is found in recent developments where gay youth are mentored. Just as heterosexual youth endure the sturm und drang of dating, when *Man's Man* youth are validated and and valued, they too improve their behavior.
| Quote: | | The spread of Aids among homosexuals indicates that many homosexuals engage in sex with as many partners as they can find. Some women were infected by men who engaged in sex with men and women, again pointing to the desire for physical pleasure above committment to any person or any sex. |
As does spread of STDs among heterosexuals.
| Quote: | | Where do you draw the line between tolerating individual behavior and advocating behaviors that nuture the family, and thus the community? |
I believe by valuing and honoring those of diverse sexuality we are doing what is best for the community as well as individuals. One could just as easily ask about spouse abuse in heterosexual marriages and therefore conclude marriage or heterosexuality itself is problematic.
| Quote: | | God has told us His view, but what do the pagans think? |
Not being pagan, I'm not sure. One pagan or Wiccan maxim refers to the value we should "harm none", similar to Christianity's Golden Rule.
| Quote: | | Final thought, does being pre-disposed to a characteristic behavior, such as being attracted to blond girls in scanty bathing suits, mean that I am a people, or just human with a human flaw? |
Well, you are a heterosexual male with a jones for blondes as is fueled by the culture. One could say such things as Marilyn Monroe are part of your culture which does make you part of a "people", as does such things as the NFL, NASCAR, hunting and fishing, the David Letterman Show and various other phenomena.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | | Dwarf wrote: | | I wonder why you don't see any homosexual animals. If it's a natural occurence and they can't help it...shouldn't there be homosexual activity with animals as well? Ofcourse not, because homosexuality is not a natural occurence that someone is born with; it's a choice. |
You have obviously not been around at a farm, or many animals for that matter, by stating that.
Fake |
Indeed, and there is documentation of homosexual couplings throughout the animal kingdom including a pair of penguins at the National Zoo in washington, D.C.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | If I were to suggest railing against behaviors that do not nurture the family or the community I would start by closing down the bars, the strip clubs, the gambling houses, the porn shops, professional sporting events, etc. Anywhere that a person is influenced to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, spend time away from one's family, or spend resources better used for the edification of the family or community. |
More on the topic of this forum, would you continue the battle against those who destroy the family to include the gay/lesbian activists? This front has done so much damage to the family by penetrating every level of government and shutting the door on anyone with a different point of view by claiming racism, hate, intolerance, judgmental, etc.
So would you go to battle against these forces as well? Because I certainly have no problem with your list. It just fails to include this particular group. |
Gays and lesbians per se are certainly no threat to "the family" as they have families of their own. However, antis threaten these families when they seek to use a person's homosexuality to deny child custody. Also, many homosexuals have been harmed by heterosexual relatives of a partner at the time of that person's death or catastrophic illness. In a segment of the film "If These Walls Could Talk 2" Vanessa Redgrave portrayed an elderly lesbian who was shut out by her life partner's family after that woman's death. It was very realistic.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Gays and lesbians per se are certainly no threat to "the family" as they have families of their own. |
I was refering to the militant gay activists who spead their words with impunity and absolutely thrust anyone with an opposing opinion into the media as racist, intolerant, etc.
| Quote: | | However, antis threaten these families when they seek to use a person's homosexuality to deny child custody. Also, many homosexuals have been harmed by heterosexual relatives of a partner at the time of that person's death or catastrophic illness. In a segment of the film "If These Walls Could Talk 2" Vanessa Redgrave portrayed an elderly lesbian who was shut out by her life partner's family after that woman's death. It was very realistic. |
I did not see this movie but I have lived with this scenario. I had a cousin with which I was very close die last year. She had been with the same woman for years. This woman is a close family friend and respected by all. In fact she lives in my aunt's home. Here is the catch- no one in our family pretended to condone this behavior as acceptable. Janice and Mago knew exactly where we all stood from the beginning. This did not create an absence of love, but it also did not send any mixed message on what is biblical behavior and what is not. God bless you, Janice. My prayer has always been that on your death bed you came to know the Lord and repented. I pray that we see each other inside the gates.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was refering to the militant gay activists who spead their words with impunity and absolutely thrust anyone with an opposing opinion into the media as racist, intolerant, etc |
I would put this group with the militant far-right religious who murder abortion doctors and bomb family planning clinics as "those who destroy the family". Neither group edifies the family or the community.
| Quote: | | The illness cannot be transmitted sexually to a couple that only has sex with one another |
. Let us qualify this statement to include that this is true so long as neither of the couple is infected, nor engages in any activity that would put them at risk, including not working in the medical profession where they may come in contact with bodily fluids, or in emergency services where the same can happen, or travel or work in countries where the disease is more prevelant and precautions are less so....
| Quote: | | So the illness is transmitted sexually by having sex with more than one partner or sex with someone who has had sex with one or more other people. |
with the exception of the few things mentioned above, and others...
| Quote: | | The illness is more likely to be transmitted anally than vaginally. |
or orally, as dental health is much more suspect than anal health, and the entire mouth is mucus membrane which is also susceptable to transmission. Many researchers are of the opinion that oral sex was the leading contributor to the spread of the disease not, in fact, anal sex.
| Quote: | | The illness is more likely to be transmitted anally than vaginally. |
This readily accepted conclusion is also under intense scrutiny and completely leaves out the oral aspects, as such is not a reliable basis for condemnation of either form of sexual activity.
| Quote: | | In summary the illness was spread sexually primarily by male homosexual activity in America because the combination of multiple partners and anal sex is a deadly high risk activity |
this is true with the qualification that we refer to the initial spread of the disease.
The danger in this idea is that the focus is taken away from the nature of the disease and placed on the people, or activities, surrounding it. Our lesson from the spread of the disease in other countries is that the nature of the disease should be the focus, and our life applications should derive from there. The nature of the disease is that it is a blood and fluid borne virus. It is transmitted through blood and/or fluid contact. That contact be accomplished through sexual activity or poor sanitation practices is of equal import and to stop the disease we need to eliminate the misinformation, the discriminatory attitudes, and the condemnation of a people, and we must focus on the reality of the disease - everyone who has contact with bodily fluids is in some respects at risk. It is not 'thier' disease, it is not righteous punishment, it is not just a homosexual or drug user's punishment. It is our problem, and as a Human, an American, and foremost, a Christian, it is my job to love, respect, assist, and pray for those afflicted, not condemn, not judge, not hide in stupidity or self-righteousness.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Gays and lesbians per se are certainly no threat to "the family" as they have families of their own. |
I was refering to the militant gay activists who spead their words with impunity and absolutely thrust anyone with an opposing opinion into the media as racist, intolerant, etc. |
As Rev. JP said those are examples of extremism and excessive rhetoric. It's kind of like saying Larry Flynt is a typical heterosexual to say these are typical homosexuals.
| Quote: | | However, antis threaten these families when they seek to use a person's homosexuality to deny child custody. Also, many homosexuals have been harmed by heterosexual relatives of a partner at the time of that person's death or catastrophic illness. In a segment of the film "If These Walls Could Talk 2" Vanessa Redgrave portrayed an elderly lesbian who was shut out by her life partner's family after that woman's death. It was very realistic. |
I did not see this movie but I have lived with this scenario. I had a cousin with which I was very close die last year. She had been with the same woman for years. This woman is a close family friend and respected by all. In fact she lives in my aunt's home. Here is the catch- no one in our family pretended to condone this behavior as acceptable. Janice and Mago knew exactly where we all stood from the beginning. This did not create an absence of love, but it also did not send any mixed message on what is biblical behavior and what is not. God bless you, Janice. My prayer has always been that on your death bed you came to know the Lord and repented. I pray that we see each other inside the gates.[/quote]
Interesting and poingant, yet sad. If you had dropped the judgementalism and pretending to know the will of God think how much better the relationships would have been.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I would put this group with the militant far-right religious who murder abortion doctors and bomb family planning clinics as "those who destroy the family". Neither group edifies the family or the community. |
Rev,
I could not agree more. Those you describe above unfortunately claim they are acting under the direction of God. They are certainly not. Our Lord Jesus never took a life or used violence to teach or admonish those engaged in sinful behavior. You are so right to bring this up on this discussion. I commend you and am somewhat embarrassed I did not include this faction with those that destroy the family.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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