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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
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 Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hi, 
| Rocket wrote: | | Jesus would have been speaking about the Jews who did not believe in Him. |
Why do you come to that conclusion? The context doesn't show that. Jesus was discussing how many will be saved. Not how many of the "Jews who did not believe in Him" will be saved.
Luke 13:22 And he journeyed through from city to city and from village to village, teaching and continuing on his journey to Jerusalem. 23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
Take care. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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What makes me think that, Hmmm! let me think for a minute. Could it be the sentence that reads "He went through cities and towns making His way to Jerusalem. In order to do this He had to be in Israel. If He was in Israel would it be possible that He was talking to Jews.
Jesus was a Jew, most of the people He came in contact with were also Jews, especially when this chapter has Him dealing with Pharisees who belonged to the Jewish faith.Jesus was not trying to make Jews into Christians, there was no Christianity at that time. He was trying to do God's will in teaching God's people God's will. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hi,
| Rocket wrote: | What makes me think that, Hmmm! let me think for a minute. Could it be the sentence that reads "He went through cities and towns making His way to Jerusalem. In order to do this He had to be in Israel. If He was in Israel would it be possible that He was talking to Jews.
Jesus was a Jew, most of the people He came in contact with were also Jews, especially when this chapter has Him dealing with Pharisees who belonged to the Jewish faith.Jesus was not trying to make Jews into Christians, there was no Christianity at that time. He was trying to do God's will in teaching God's people God's will. |
By your understanding then when Jesus was speaking about salvation that meant only the salvation of the Jews?
Yes Jesus was a Jew and was talking to Jews, but that doesn't change the context of the question he was asked, it applies to all. It was about those being saved, and it wasn't only the Jews who were going to be saved. This narrow road and gate applies to all who want to be Christians. Being a Christain is not the easy coarse, hence the illustration of the narrow door:
Luke 13:22 And he journeyed through from city to city and from village to village, teaching and continuing on his journey to Jerusalem. 23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
Take care. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| So my friend, what is a Christian today? Who and what were the people who followed Him then. These are two very different things. In my understanding, the New Testament is a continuation of the Old Testament. Does this narrow gate apply to us, yes, because in actuallity we are a continuation of God's people. The question should be is Christianity as it is today, valid in the eyes of God and His servant Yeshua. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hi,
That is a good question. Judging from the amount of people who claim to be Christian yet let pagan teachings like the trinity or other nonscriptural teachings and customs guide their faith, I would say God and Jesus aren't pleased with such efforts. There are those who claim to be Christian yet Jesus doesn't recognise them as his own. Notice:
Matt 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Do you see how these ones are calling Jesus "Lord"? They claim to follow him yet Jesus doesn't know them.
This verse is just a few verses beyond
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
So that really is the question. Which "Christians" are acceptable to God and Jesus? The answer- The ones truly doing God's will and accurately following His word. To find this group the clues is in His word the Bible as to how we should act and what we should be doing. 
Take care. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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That's true, the teachings God wanted us to learn are in the Bible, but over the years the teachings have been lost in translation. Different churches tranlated the Bible so it's meaning goes along the beliefs of that church.
So, it is necessary to go further, to study who Yeshua really was. To me, Yeshua was a Jew, not a God. He was raised reading the Holy Hebrew Scriptures. In the Old Testament or ancient Hebrew scriptures, Yeshua would have learned as in deut.God is one. That does not mean there are three that make up the Godhead. It does not mean Yeshua was God incarnate, it means as the Bible teaches, God is One. This is what Yeshua believes, so where did the church find this trinity. Then
you look at the world as it was at the time Yeshua walked the earth. For example, what was the faith of the Roman's, what would have been the faith of the people belonging to the churches Paul started in light of the fact that Paul was Apostle to the gentiles. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hi,
| Rocket wrote: | | This is what Yeshua believes, so where did the church find this trinity. |
Acts 20:29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
The trinity is one of those twisted things, and many are drawn away from the truth as a result of this twisting of the identity of God. 
Take care. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| So what can we do? I guess that's a great question. The Christian church is huge with thousands who believe it's teachings. I cringe everytime I think of it. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hi,
What can we do? We can teach people the truth. God draws honest hearted ones to accept the truth the Bible teaches, and directs them to associate with the true Christians who apply the Bible in their lives. People need to be honest, they need to be humble (teachable), and they need to be hungry for true spiritual food.
Matt 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
The Bible also says people will aquire teachers for themselves that would tickle their ears, tell them what they want to hear. Such ones are not following God's word but end up opposing the truth.
Take care. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| That's my problem, there are so many who believe all this nonsense. What will happen to them? They go to church and recite what they have memorized without giving it any thought whatsoever. They actually believe they are doing God's will, and all the time they are making Him angry. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Right Rocket... 
They just mindlessly accept whatever was fed them... no one every thought about it, studied on it, prayed about it, nothing. Just sat there with blank stares in their eyes and said: 'duh, okay... if you say so I believe it...'
give me a break. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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That's about it RevJP. It's obvious. Had any studing been done outside of church doctrine you would not be arguing with me here. The history of the church is very clear. It goes back to 325AD and tells the true story. When you go back a littler further you get more of the story, and you go back before the time of Yeshua you see a faith called Paganism that did believe in trinities. The church will not teach you this, but you can learn it through the study of Ancient history. Try it, you might be surprised what you find. I have never asked anyone to believe me, all I ask is that you study and learn for yourself the truth.
God Bless! |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I appreciate the advice Rocket. Obviously no one around here has ever studied those things you mention. Neither have the saints of the past 2000 years.... I mean really.... why would anyone ever imagine that all the theological and religious scholars that have existed and believed and accepted the triune God of the bible would have ever studied anything outside of their particular religion?
| Quote: | | you see a faith called Paganism that did believe in trinities |
Maybe you should study pagan beliefs. Many have believed in three gods, and gods of threes, but none has ever taught or understood the Godhead of scripture. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Rocket,
Hi,
| Rocket wrote: | | They actually believe they are doing God's will, and all the time they are making Him angry. |
More then sincerity is needed in order to please God. Before Paul was converted he was sincere. Yet he was persecuting and approving of the killing of Christians. What he was missing was accurate knowledge. Once he realized his mistake he turned to the truth. It doesn't matter if people think they are pleasing God, especially if they are not careful to follow the Bible, their worship is not acceptable to God. If someone is trully sincere God will show them the truth, and if they are honest, humble, and hungry they will gain the accurate knowledge and realise the truth of the trinity.
Why do many not understand the truth about the trinity?
2 Cor 4:4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
People who believe the trinity are letting Satan blind them to the truth. If they continue in this coarse what will happen to them?
2 Thess 1:8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.
People who chose to believe the trinity do not know God but alter Him into this mysterious "3 persons in one God" being. If people mindlessly believe what they are fed they are responsible for their own lives because they don't investigate it themselves. We are not to leave our spirituallity up to the church leaders, we are responsible for ourselves. Some will continue misleading themselves.
| JP wrote: | | Many have believed in three gods, and gods of threes, but none has ever taught or understood the Godhead of scripture. |
India. Triune Hindu godhead, c. 7th century C.E.
| Quote: | THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."
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In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
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Italy. Trinity, c. 15th century C.E. (2)
It is true that Christendoms trinity is a bit altered but it is also clear where the origin came from.
Take care. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Right Rocket... :roll:
They just mindlessly accept whatever was fed them... no one every thought about it, studied on it, prayed about it, nothing. Just sat there with blank stares in their eyes and said: 'duh, okay... if you say so I believe it...'
give me a break. |
Throughout history, the “Christian” belief system was legislated and enforced as civil law by a politically corrupt church upon a society that was totally uneducated and illiterate. They were incapable of studying on an individual basis, even if the Scriptures had been available to them.
Those who did study and disagreed with the church were dealt with in anything but a Christian manner – like burning at the stake after long periods of inhuman torture of all kinds.
The Trinitarian church was corrupt from the beginning, and is corrupt to this day. It in no way reflects the teaching of Jesus Christ and the disciples. Even today, most church members are Sunday head nodders, and biblically illiterate. Most of what they hear in church today is "feel good" garbage that has nothing to do with the Bible. |
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