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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Rocket wrote:
| Quote: | | It's interesting how you must make things of the Bible much more involved then they really are. |
we haven't even scratched the surface...LOL... |
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R7-12
Tadpole
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Rocket,
Forgive me for bothering some of your opinions.
You said,
| Quote: | | We have thought very deeply on the subject of the 10 commandments. It's interesting how you must make things of the Bible much more involved then they really are. We have brought in Lucifer the Angel God kicked out ot heaven. Adam and Eve had to be brought in to the discussion, why, I don't know. |
Many people do not know or understand there is a distinction between the law and the commandments. You may want to study that a bit.
The point of this thread is not to make the things of the Bible any more involved than they already are, in fact the point is to get to some very basic fundamental spiritual principles that will help make certain truths much easier to identify, undertand and apply.
| Quote: | | The commandments were not given before the earth was formed, because very simply there was nothing and noone to give it to. God might have rules in heaven but they are not for us. The commandments were given long after the above events took place. |
I don't think any assertions have been made concerning when commandments were or weren't given, so your criticism is puzzling.
I did find another one of your comments intriguing, could you please provide the scripture or biblical support that states God's rules in the heavens don't apply to us?
Also interesting is that you appear to speak of "THE" Commandments as though they are somehow limited to ten, however, I'm sure a quick look at both the Hebrew and Greek terms rendered commandments in English, will reveal quite broad and rather less restricted applications.
Anyway, I'm certain that if you're patient, the goals of this thread will become apparent.
Have a good Sabbath,
R7-12 |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: God's Law |
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Hi all,
| Quote: | This brings us back to the initial question. When and from where did the law originate?
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My guess would be that the law originated with God and that it was from eternity. I believe that it is the mechanism by and through which God governs his creation e.g law of gravity etc. By creation I mean the universe as well as the spirit world. God in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, when, I don't know it could have been billions of years ago, (but that's another thread). When God created the angelic host I believe they were also governed by his law. A distinction is sometimes made between "law" and "commandments" as you have brought out which I find interesting. I belieave the scriptures you quoted with regard to Satan being cast out throws some light on the question of God's spiritual law summed up for us in 10 commandments. 1 John 3:4 tells us what sin is. Now if sin is the transgression of God's law then logically it would have had to have been in place for Satan and those angels to have "sinned" right? I believe when Christ said he fulfilled the law he didn't mean he was doing away with but that he was showing us by his example how it is to be kept and that he magnified it to encompass our attitudes and thoughts as well as our actions. We sin in thought, word and deed. Since God does not change, is it unreasonable to think that these same principles that we have come to understand since the creation of man could have pre-existed us? What was Satan's sin. His vanity (a wrong attitude). He was puffed up because of his beauty, he deceived himself into thinking that he could do a better job of governing than God could, he said in his heart (a wrong thought) he would ascend to God's throne and kick him off it, he himself would take over the governing of God's creation. (paraphrasing). God was too orderly for him, he (Satan)probably introduced competition rather than harmonious working together in the other deceived angels (but that's another topic). In short his attitude was messed up and it mushroomed from there. He became the father of lies (a liar). All of these are trangressions of God's commands. If we trangress God's laws, (He is the lawgiver) we reap the consequences whether physically e.g law of gravity, jumping off your roof and hoping the law fails to bring you to the ground possibly to your death, or spiritually e.g being cut off from God by not repenting of your sins and reap the penalty of death. Wow, look at that, you die either way.
Anyway, these are my thoughts from my study. What say ye?  |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| What we are doing here is in the thinking that God is in our universe, which some of you refer to as heaven. I don't believe that God is up in our outer space somehwere. I do not have Bible references for this, but if you think for a minute, the first page of the Bible, Genesis l:1, it says, God created the heavens and the earth. If God created the heavens and the earth, out of nothing, then where was God and His angels when He did the creating out of nothing. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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If heaven is God's throne......
imagine how large the whole kingdom is.... 
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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O.K lone that is still not the answer to the question, where was God and His angels when God did the creating. Where is heaven? We obviously won't know the answer to that question until we die, so how can we even speculate on this subject.
The Old Testament of the Bible is the history of God's people and the covenant God made with them. It is also the history of how these people broke that covenant by not doing God's will.
The New Testament is, therefore, a continuation of the history of God's people and how through God's love for His people, in spite of their sin, He,God, sent Yeshua to save us all. It's a beautiful story, you aught to read it some time. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | O.K lone that is still not the answer to the question, where was God and His angels when God did the creating. Where is heaven? We obviously won't know the answer to that question until we die, so how can we even speculate on this subject.
The Old Testament of the Bible is the history of God's people and the covenant God made with them. It is also the history of how these people broke that covenant by not doing God's will.
The New Testament is, therefore, a continuation of the history of God's people and how through God's love for His people, in spite of their sin, He,God, sent Yeshua to save us all. It's a beautiful story, you aught to read it some time. |
The old becomes new and the new becomes old and is renewed again.....world without end...
| Quote: | | Where is heaven? We obviously won't know the answer to that question until we die, so how can we even speculate on this subject. |
The kingdom of God is within you...so where was God while he was creating his kingdom?
If you don't know the answer now while your alive how do you expect to know it when your dead? 
Job 38:1 ¶ Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Isa 40:21 ¶ Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.
Well, we see that the heavens and the earth were "planted"....
Hbr 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
this is interesting...
1Cr 3:5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.
Num 11:12 Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
1Cr 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
(When the morning stars )
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Psa 19:1 ¶ [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Psa 19:5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
1Cr 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Cr 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
| Quote: | | It's a beautiful story, you aught to read it some time. |
I read a lot...I enjoy reading... |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well at 71 after studing the Bible most of my life, I know for sure heaven is not in this universe that God created. I have not read in the Bible or anywhere else where exactly heaven is, perhaps you have.
I believe Paul told us exactly what and how to believe lCorinthians 14:12 Now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror;then we shall see face to face. My knowledge in inpertict now, then I shall know ever as I am known.
So as I said before, I know Yeshua came to save and I know I am saved, but I do not know where heaven is or where God's thrown is. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Rocket,
I don't believe heaven in is the universe either...
I think God put heaven in us...
He tells us to store up treasure in heaven and then tells us that where our treasure is that's where our heart is..
so back track..where your heart is, is where your treasure is, and that's where heaven is located..
The kingdom is within you..
Heaven is God's kingdom..God's kingdom is his spirit. He placed his spirit in you...
So when you die I believe the spirit that is in you goes and takes up residence in another heart that God creates for the spirit to inhabit...
some say reincarnation..I say we get a new house..
maybe we can't find heaven because we're looking outside ourselves when we should be looking inside?
sounds like that new-agey stuff huh..maybe they got something there though...
Maybe we won't know till we get there...which could be right here where we are...  |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I really couldn't agree or disagree with you, I haven't read anything that could explain where heaven is. I do know it must be a place because that is where Lucifer was kicked out of.
If in Genesis God said He would create us in His image, what image was He talking about. Was it the image He thought up in His head, or was it the image of Himself, in which case God would not be a spirit only. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | I really couldn't agree or disagree with you, I haven't read anything that could explain where heaven is. I do know it must be a place because that is where Lucifer was kicked out of.
If in Genesis God said He would create us in His image, what image was He talking about. Was it the image He thought up in His head, or was it the image of Himself, in which case God would not be a spirit only. |
Lucifer/devil/evil gets thrown out/cut off/circumcised from your heart.
God is love...we are given a new heart one of flesh. The commandments in stone verses the commandments in the heart of flesh....the spirit of God..the Spirit of the law is in the heart of flesh...the spirit could not reside in stone.
No love in it.
too cold. too hard...too solid.
make no image of God..nothing...male/female...birds/fish/animal...
God is spirit...
we place God in images that he tells us do not do...
no one has seen God at any time...
you can witness his works and you can hear his speach..
but you can't see him.
Because if you see him then it is no longer faith but an image.
blessed are those who have not seen and believed.
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: The Law of God |
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My take on the original question: What is the law of God?
I believe it is the mechanism through which God governs his creation. It preceeds creation, was always with God and is in fact the very character of God. God is Love, His law is Love. Love is fulfilment of the Law. It shows us how to Love God and each other. God governs us in, by and through Love. His every action is because of His love and is as a result of His Love. To reject God's governance is to reject His Law is to reject His Love. |
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R7-12
Tadpole
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi pato,
Very well put, and a great answer to the initial question.
I'ld like to see anyone try to dispute your words and provide support for their position from scripture - and make their argument fit with the rest of scripture.
R7-12 |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2709
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
119:166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
Salvation and commandment-keeping, are tied together. |
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