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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Just a little correction, baptism is Biblical. Remember John the Baptist? The ritual of Holy Communion was initiated by Yeshusa. I believe in Yeshua and the things He taught because I believe what He taught was from God. |
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tomcat34
Not So Newbie
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: Trinity-definition |
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Do you agree with this definition ?
“The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion . . . Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.
Nearly all other churches in Christendom agree. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church also calls the Trinity “the fundamental doctrine of Christianity,” even saying: “Christians are those who accept Christ as God.” “God is triune. . . . The Father is totally God. The Son is totally God. The Holy Spirit is totally God.”
Thus, the Trinity is considered to be “one God in three Persons.” Each is said to be without beginning, having existed for eternity. Each is said to be almighty, with each neither greater nor lesser than the others. If you agree with this definition let me know. |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hi tomcat, I agree that this is the conceipt of the church. The problem I am having is that the conceipt of the churches belief in the trinity does not go along with what Yeshua taught and what the bible teaches.
I studied the history of the church, and that is an eye opener in itself.
According to the Bible Yeshua/Jesus was born into a Jewish family from the line of David, King of Israel. Throughout the New Testament the words of the Old Testament are presented. The faith of the Jewish people does not reflect a God in three persons. As a Jewish person, Yeshua would not have taught this.
At the time Yeshua walked the earth, in the land of Israel, there were two beliefs, the belief in One God as in Judaism and the belief in multiple Gods as in Paganism.
In the book of Romans Paul describes us, Romans 11:17 as branches cut from a wild Olive tree and grafted on to all the others and sharing in the rich root.
God did not do away with the faith He first gave to His people but continued it through His faithful servant Yeshua. I know this is hard to believe, I know the church has been teaching the trinity for centuries, but just because something is old, does not make it true. |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: |
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tomcat34 wrote:
| Quote: | | “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion" |
I guess I have some trouble with this.
I have no problem with the Trinity as an important Christian doctrine. But I would prefer to say that faith in Jesus--trinitarian or nontrinitarian--is the central doctrine.
BMZ:
| Quote: | | Trinity is a pagan concept. |
Interpreted broadly I would agree. Modern thought probably finds the doctrine of the trinity stranger than pagan (Greek) thought which had many non-christian trinitarian formulas. But the non-christian Greeks didn't have to wrestle with the compatibility of trinitarian thought with monotheism the way that early Christians did.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2054
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Plotinus,
Hi, 
| Plotinus wrote: | | Modern thought probably finds the doctrine of the trinity stranger than pagan (Greek) thought which had many non-christian trinitarian formulas. But the non-christian Greeks didn't have to wrestle with the compatibility of trinitarian thought with monotheism the way that early Christians did. |
I agree with this statement. In an effort to force a false concept into "Christianity" it was morphed and altered to a confusing degree. Yet people don't seem to have a problem believing such false ideas.
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: |
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TBax said:
| Quote: | | In an effort to force a false concept into "Christianity" it was morphed and altered to a confusing degree. |
Hi TBax. There is a lot about your statement that I agree with. Since Greek thought of the time was often trinitarian there was an awful lot of soul searching to be done to interpret a commitment to the risen Christ within the trinitarian framework.
However, I neither wish to diss trinitarian Greek thought nor trinitarian Christian thought with my remarks on this point. As perhaps Northrop Frye would have said, if you don't believe in the Trinity, perhaps that simply means that it does not have transforming power for you.
Not all paths to God must be the same. Perhaps God has chosen some of us to follow a path to him which is trinitarian in nature and has chosen others of us to follow a different path. Those who say that the Trinity is simply a mystery that we cannot rationally comprehend may have a good point. God is a mysterium tremendum for which words and human thought are always inadequate. On the other hand, a person who finds the Trinity a false doctrine way be well served by passing on the notion and focussing on other aspects of our relationship to God and Jesus. There is surely no point in trying a one size fits all approach in this case.
Although early Christians such as Augustine of Hippo and Justin Martyr saw themselves as opposed to the pagan culture of the time, they also drew on its insights, and found much to admire.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2054
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Plotinus,
Hi,
When you said
| Plotinus wrote: | | Not all paths to God must be the same. Perhaps God has chosen some of us to follow a path to him which is trinitarian in nature and has chosen others of us to follow a different path. |
This kind of reminded me of how many people say "all the different religions are just different paths leading to the same place". Jesus only spoke of two paths. Notice what he said.
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
There aren't opposing truths in the Bible. For instance either Jesus is God Almighty or he isn't. Either Jesus is part of a trinity or he isn't. Either you are on that narrow road that a few find that leads to life or you aren't. To think one could think either way and still be acceptable to God I believe is dangerous. We must learn how God feels about these subjects and accept His thoughts. 
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi TBax, I have to agree with your post. It's been amazing to me over the years how many different excused there is to a belief in a triune God that doesn't exist.
Here I am on this board with the nickname rattlesnake, because I try to bring forth what is taught in the Bible instead of themany lies of the church.
I guess you can't win 'em all. |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Hi TBax. Thank your for your thoughts on my comments.
| Quote: | | This kind of reminded me of how many people say "all the different religions are just different paths leading to the same place". |
You are right. It is reminiscent of that. But saying different religions are just different paths to the same place is not what I was saying.
| Quote: |
There aren't opposing truths in the Bible. For instance either Jesus is God Almighty or he isn't. Either Jesus is part of a trinity or he isn't. Either you are on that narrow road that a few find that leads to life or you aren't. To think one could think either way and still be acceptable to God I believe is dangerous. We must learn how God feels about these subjects and accept His thoughts.
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Well, I agree with almost all of what you say, but perhaps not everything here. I expect that by the time I depart this life my thoughts on most of these subjects will have evolved. So I pray that I will come to a better understanding. But at the moment the Bible speaks to me with a voice of love and forgiveness. Your quote from Matthew is very appropriate I think. The path to God may well be narrow. But the central question for all of us is whether we are on the path.
| Quote: | | For instance either Jesus is God Almighty or he isn't. |
This is unquestionably true. But I never denied it.
| Quote: | | Either Jesus is part of a trinity or he isn't. |
Ditto, I agree. I, a wretched heretic, might quote another from 1500 years ago on this point. Dionysius argues for the Trinity by saying
| Quote: | | Regarding the threefold division of every hierarchy I think I have already said enough....There I explained that in our sacred tradition every hierarchy is divided into three....There are those, inspired by God, who understand and purvey them. |
But note that Dionysius also says
| Quote: | | the divinity .... resorted to dense enigmas and to symbolism whose meaning is discerned with maximum difficulty |
and he also argued that
| Quote: | | The Word of God makes use of poetic imagery when discussing these formless intelligences ... as a concession to the nature of our own mind. |
This is only commentary without the authority of scripture, of course, and perhaps Dionysius is in Hell right now. 
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2054
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Plotinus,
Hi,
| Plotinus wrote: | | You are right. It is reminiscent of that. But saying different religions are just different paths to the same place is not what I was saying. |
It is not my intention to be difficult, but what exactly were you saying. Some can learn the truth about God as a Trinity and others learn the truth about God as being one person? I'm sorry but the two don't gel and are opposing ideas. Both are not true.
| Plotinus wrote: | | The path to God may well be narrow. But the central question for all of us is whether we are on the path. |
Amen to that!!!
However, if you have to ask yourself that question chances are you are not on the narrow path. 
Personally, I don't care what Dionysius has to say. What I believe comes from the Bible where God teaches us what we should believe.
If Dionysius is in Hell then he will be resurrected when Hell is emptied.
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Plotinus
Big Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi TBax:
| Quote: | | Some can learn the truth about God as a Trinity and others learn the truth about God as being one person? |
Please, I don't think you are being difficult. Perhaps my powers of explanation need some improvement. No, again, this is not what I am saying.
Perhaps I shall post again about this when I am able to explain myself better.
I envy you your assurance of salvation. I don't know about myself, but I shall take my chances with Dionysius. If we spend some time together in Hell I could have worse company. 
Take care, my friend, and God bless you.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2054
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Plotinus,
Hi,
The specific sentence that confused me as to what you were saying was:
| Plotinus wrote: | | Not all paths to God must be the same. Perhaps God has chosen some of us to follow a path to him which is trinitarian in nature and has chosen others of us to follow a different path. |
If I misread it I appologise. Can you understand my confusion?
| Plotinus wrote: | | I envy you your assurance of salvation. |
It is not that I'm assured that I'm saved. I am sure that I am on that narrow road, but in order to be saved it is up to me, with God's help, to stay on that road.
Matt 24:13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.
Take care.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 990
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: |
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The Roman Catholic Church boasts a worldwide membership of about one billion people. Protestants, Orthodox and other Trinitarian groups combined, have close to that number.
With this in mind, it is interesting to note a couple of statements made by Jesus as a warning to his disciples:
Matthew 7:13; Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate: and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat:
Verse 14; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Verse 15; Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Verse 16; Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Matthew 24:5; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Verse 11; And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
The interesting thing about these statements is the word “many”. It does not mean “quite a few,” or “a lot.” “Many” is from the Greek is “Polus”. It means “vast numbers”; “overwhelming majority”, “great multitudes”. In other words, it means just about all who profess to be Christians. The “many” have entered the “wide gate” and gone down the “broad way” that leads to destruction.
One of the “proofs” of the Trinity is the claim that it is believed by the majority of mainline historic traditional churches, and that it is older than all other forms of Christian churches. It is, however the False Christ that Jesus warned would come on the scene (Mat. 24:5) in the form of the Trinity.
In Matthew 7:16. We are told that these false wolves will be known by their fruits. The Trinitarian church history over the last sixteen hundred years, since its inception, has been one total debauchery, unequalled in the history of mankind. The word “many” in these verses, can only be a description of the Trinitarian churches, who over the centuries have led billions of people astray. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing who have come preaching the false Christ of Trinitarianism.
If memory serves, I believe the strait gate is one that also has had many obstacles placed in front of it to make entry even more difficult, and the wide gate more readily accessible. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2054
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
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Agape,
TBax |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus would have been speaking about the Jews who did not believe in Him. To those of you who do not believe you are saved, for what reason did Crhist die then?
If you believe in Jesus, if you believe what He taught, and if you believe He died to save you from your sins, what is the problem. |
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