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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8321
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | P123, believe it or not, that is the excuse some use against men who masturbate. We're wasting sperm, we're killing potential babies! |
So by not having sex constantly with all the women they can find, they are sinning?
And let me guess... Female masturbation is also wrong, but for different reasons...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | So why do pro-lifers picket abortion clinics, and not, say, sanitary napkin factories? |
Or nature/God for that matter? Miscarriage is natural just as much as menestration is. Unfortunately for us though, nature still has the upper hand at this point in time where we can't control it.
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When do we stop learning? Maybe never |
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Okie
Tadpole
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Why do pro-lifers consider abortion to be murder, but they don't consider contraception to be murder?
A sperm is one cell, and an egg is one cell. When they come together, the result is still just one cell. Why are the two reproductive cells not considered to be "alive" or have souls, but the fertilized egg is?
After all, contraception and abortion have EXACTLY the same result, namely that a child that otherwise would have been born doesn't get born. Both cause a baby that otherwise would have existed to not exist.
So why is contraception not murder, but abortion is?
And why stop there? Let's say a couple decides that they're not in the mood one night, and the result is that a child that otherwise would have been conceived doesn't get conceived. Why isn't that murder?
Let's say a woman is going to have one child during her lifetime. Consider these two scenarios:
1. She gets pregnant, has an abortion, gets pregnant later, and has the child.
2. She gets pregnant, has the child, and then doesn't get pregnant later because she's had her baby and now uses contraception.
In the first case, she aborted the first child, and in the second case she did the equivalent of aborting the second child.
Do you see the point I am trying to make? I claim that conception is an arbitrary point to call the causing of the non-existence of a child to be murder. If you're being caused to non-exist, it doesn't really matter to you if it happened before or after conception; in either case the result is the same from the "victim's" point of view. |
First off, you need to find out when life starts. It isn't at the moment the sperm and egg come together as so many think. The Bible tells in OT that they are not to eat that which was the life of the animal. It clearly says blood is the life. There are also several refrences that say breath is the life. They didn't have all the science figured and named like we do today, so I am thinking oxygen.
The sperm and egg already together can take up to two weeks to enter the womb and attach. It is like a seed for a life at this point. My daughter's OB/GYN told her that over 50% of the time this life seed never attaches and is flushed on out of the body. So if it is a life at that point, God sure does waste a bunch of souls. 
When the life seed attaches to the womb or uterus, it gets it's first taste of real life through mama's blood that supplies it with nutrients and oxygen. To abort it is murder. On the other hand contraceptives cause the life seed to never attach in the first place. So the Life seed never gets that blood or oxygen and is therefore never alive to be killed.
Contraceptives are never 100% effective either. Both of my children were concieved while I was on contraceptives. Just goes to show that God is the one who is really in charge. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8321
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Or how about this: when the Bible talks about breath being life, it really is talking about breath, and it is saying that the soul enters the body with the first breath, which is what happened with Adam.
And therefore abortions are certainly NOT murder, since the first breath has not been taken yet and the soul has not entered the body.
Apart from the obvious scriptural verses which support this position, there are at least three other good corroborating arguments:
1. This explanation accounts for identical twins.
2. Abortions were widely practiced in antiquity, which is when the Bible was written, so if it considered them to be wrong, then it obviously would have said so EXPLICITLY.
3. Traditionally, Christians considered the soul to enter th body at the quickening, or the time when the fetus first moves. Most abortions occur long before this point.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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regnvejr
Big Goldfish
Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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| Okie wrote: | | First off, you need to find out when life starts. |
That would be close to 3.8 bill. years ago.
| Quote: | | It isn't at the moment the sperm and egg come together as so many think. |
Quite. Life already existed in the sperm and egg prior to that time.
| Quote: | | The Bible tells in OT that they are not to eat that which was the life of the animal. It clearly says blood is the life. There are also several refrences that say breath is the life. They didn't have all the science figured and named like we do today, so I am thinking oxygen. |
And your evidence is...?
| Quote: | The sperm and egg already together can take up to two weeks to enter the womb and attach. It is like a seed for a life at this point. My daughter's OB/GYN told her that over 50% of the time this life seed never attaches and is flushed on out of the body. So if it is a life at that point, God sure does waste a bunch of souls.
When the life seed attaches to the womb or uterus, it gets it's first taste of real life through mama's blood that supplies it with nutrients and oxygen. To abort it is murder. |
Murder is the illegal killing of a person. So that claim surely is pure nonsense. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Why do pro-lifers consider abortion to be murder, but they don't consider contraception to be murder?
A sperm is one cell, and an egg is one cell. When they come together, the result is still just one cell. Why are the two reproductive cells not considered to be "alive" or have souls, but the fertilized egg is?
After all, contraception and abortion have EXACTLY the same result, namely that a child that otherwise would have been born doesn't get born. Both cause a baby that otherwise would have existed to not exist.
So why is contraception not murder, but abortion is?
And why stop there? Let's say a couple decides that they're not in the mood one night, and the result is that a child that otherwise would have been conceived doesn't get conceived. Why isn't that murder?
Let's say a woman is going to have one child during her lifetime. Consider these two scenarios:
1. She gets pregnant, has an abortion, gets pregnant later, and has the child.
2. She gets pregnant, has the child, and then doesn't get pregnant later because she's had her baby and now uses contraception.
In the first case, she aborted the first child, and in the second case she did the equivalent of aborting the second child.
Do you see the point I am trying to make? I claim that conception is an arbitrary point to call the causing of the non-existence of a child to be murder. If you're being caused to non-exist, it doesn't really matter to you if it happened before or after conception; in either case the result is the same from the "victim's" point of view. |
Hi P123,
Great points.
Life begins before conception!smile
So neither is contraception nor abortion a sin of itself, nor is conceiving a baby and having one a non-sin of itself.
What makes either act of commission or omission a sin is any Hatred involved: Hatred being the attitude that discolors motive and intent and makes either act murder: taking life or preventing life or making life.
What makes either right is Love, that attitude that properly colors motive and intent and makes either act righteous.
Prolifers simply cerbrally switch from Love of conceived baby before birth which Love makes them want prebirth baby to live,
to Hate of adult after birth, which Hate makes them want that adult to die.
Prochoicers just switch in reverse:
death for baby, life as adult.
Joke: It wd be best to be kidnapped by prolifers pre-birth,
and then rekidnapped by prochoicers as an adult!
Really, with Love for both life and death and prevention of new life, each decision is right.
with Never-to-be-aborted Love for abortion/miscarriage and birth,
atoz |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: abortion? |
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I see contraception, (oral) as preventing the egg from ripening not killing it. It still has the opportunity at some later point to reach the stage for fertilization when the contraception stops. I therefore don't see this as murder. On the other hand, after the egg has been fertilized and starts to grow and develop, then that's a different story.
| Quote: | | The Bible tells in OT that they are not to eat that which was the life of the animal. It clearly says blood is the life. |
Then that clot of blood that folks claim is just a clot of blood is actually a life.
| Quote: | | There are also several refrences that say breath is the life. |
Scripture says God breath the breath of life into Adam and he became alive. IMO Adam was dead until God breathed into him. Adam was created not born therefore not having the benefit of being alive inside the womb.
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Just my thoughts
Pato |
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holly102869
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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pato,
Exellent post!!
Well done... 
_________________
Bless you,
Holly
Ask,Seek,Knock
For only you can Save yourself. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Where does human life start?
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Hi P123,
Simple question.
Where human life starts is in the living sperm and living egg of the male and female conceivers.
with the Life of Love for life and death,
atoz |
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faithintheunseen
Newbie Alert
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: My 2 cents |
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First off, everyone remember free will. If you choose not the try and conceive a child then you definitely cannot consider it murder. You can say all you want that God predicts and knows the future and that's fine but also remember the decision-making ability he gave all of us. It's by our decisions alone that drive this world.
I would say that the sperm and egg coming together is the first part in birth. The abort this process would be murder to me. I can't look at it any other way because otherwise this is going to be a child of God. I don't consider abortion to be the answer in any situation to be honest. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: My 2 cents |
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| faithintheunseen wrote: | First off, everyone remember free will. If you choose not the try and conceive a child then you definitely cannot consider it murder. You can say all you want that God predicts and knows the future and that's fine but also remember the decision-making ability he gave all of us. It's by our decisions alone that drive this world.
I would say that the sperm and egg coming together is the first part in birth. The abort this process would be murder to me. I can't look at it any other way because otherwise this is going to be a child of God. I don't consider abortion to be the answer in any situation to be honest. |
Hi FITU,
welcome.
Thanx for your honesty.
I am interested in how to answer these questions:
Is murder killing or killing with hatred?
How is anger without a cause murder? Matt 5:21-22.
How to understand God telling Abraham to kill his son Isaac? Gen 22.
Did God tell A to abort and murder Isaac?
How to explain Abraham decision to kill or abort Isaac?
Did A murder or attempt to murder or abort Isaac?
Why did God bless A for his attempted abortion or murder of isaac?
Thanx in advance.
with all Love and Respect,
atoz |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Or how about this: when the Bible talks about breath being life, it really is talking about breath, and it is saying that the soul enters the body with the first breath, which is what happened with Adam. |
This is an excellent point....yet absolute silence has been the only response....until now.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8321
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: Re: My 2 cents |
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| atoz wrote: |
I am interested in how to answer these questions:
Is murder killing or killing with hatred?
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This is a good point. It was pointed out to me that the commandment doesn't say, "Thou shalt not kill.", it says something more along the lines of "Thou shalt not murder in anger."
So even if a fetus has a soul, unless there's anger involved in the abortion, it's not murder.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Dust posted
| Quote: | | Quote: | P1234567890 wrote:
Or how about this: when the Bible talks about breath being life, it really is talking about breath, and it is saying that the soul enters the body with the first breath, which is what happened with Adam. |
This is an excellent point....yet absolute silence has been the only response....until now. |
This was answered by pato
| Quote: | | Quote: | | There are also several refrences that say breath is the life. |
Scripture says God breath the breath of life into Adam and he became alive. IMO Adam was dead until God breathed into him. Adam was created not born therefore not having the benefit of being alive inside the womb. |
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8321
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Maybe so, but the first breath is the ONLY explanation for when the soul enters the body in the entire Bible.
There is no verse whatsoever which says that life starts at conception.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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