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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8319
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
But it WAS okay. It's not okay NOW, but it WAS at the time. If Tiptronic argued anywhere that the same behaviour is justifiable now, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but I don't think he is saying that. |
Yes, that's exactly what he's saying! Notice the alarming lack of past tense:
| Tiptronic wrote: |
In Islam, what determines whether a woman can get married is whether or not she has reached adulthood. And adulthood is not just defined by a number, it is defined as when the boy/girl has reached puberty. Muslim Scholars overwhemlingly agree that the minimum age of marriage is puberty. Other things such as whether kids are now responsible for their actions etc are also determined by when they hit puberty. |
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well, ick. Tip, is this what you meant?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8319
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Also, I have a *really* hard time imagining that even 1400 years ago, it was ok for a dirty old man in his mid 50s to have sex with a girl who hadn't even hit double digits yet!
She literally could have been his granddaughter! It's just nasty!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage? |
Let me break this down for you.
In Islam, what determines whether a woman can get married is whether or not she has reached adulthood. And adulthood is not just defined by a number, it is defined as when the boy/girl has reached puberty. Muslim Scholars overwhemlingly agree that the minimum age of marriage is puberty. Other things such as whether kids are now responsible for their actions etc are also determined by when they hit puberty.
So basically, Aisha (ra) was married when she a women, i.e. had reached puberty and an age of biological maturity. |
WRONG... DEAD DOG WRONG. Iranian law today even states that the minimum age for women is 9. Also, this created some pretty precarious conditions in the Afghan refugee camps in 2002 where two thirds of the 2nd grade aged girls (note – they weren’t in school) were married or engaged…. While virtually all of the girls above second grade age were already married. Second grade, in case you don’t realize it, is 8 years old. This is according to the UNICEF… a proponent of that glorious organization that has issued in excess of 400 condemnations of Israel.
Aisha married Mohamed when she was seven.... not 9. The marriage wasn't consummated until she was 9... which... is kinda sorta young for puberty... but, hey, I'll give that. But lets just say for the sake of argument she had entered puberty at 9. It doesn't bother you that Mohammed, the standard in which all Muslims are suppose to follow, was 'kicking it' with his 9 year old bride when he was in his early fifties? You OK with that? You believe that Muslims should be modeling that behavior?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Well, ick. Tip, is this what you meant? |
No one would have bashed an eyelid back then over this. I cant say the same if it happened today, but its comparing different times, different places. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage? |
Let me break this down for you.
In Islam, what determines whether a woman can get married is whether or not she has reached adulthood. And adulthood is not just defined by a number, it is defined as when the boy/girl has reached puberty. Muslim Scholars overwhemlingly agree that the minimum age of marriage is puberty. Other things such as whether kids are now responsible for their actions etc are also determined by when they hit puberty.
So basically, Aisha (ra) was married when she a women, i.e. had reached puberty and an age of biological maturity. |
WRONG... DEAD DOG WRONG. Iranian law today even states that the minimum age for women is 9. Also, this created some pretty precarious conditions in the Afghan refugee camps in 2002 where two thirds of the 2nd grade aged girls (note – they weren’t in school) were married or engaged…. While virtually all of the girls above second grade age were already married. Second grade, in case you don’t realize it, is 8 years old. This is according to the UNICEF… a proponent of that glorious organization that has issued in excess of 400 condemnations of Israel.
Aisha married Mohamed when she was seven.... not 9. The marriage wasn't consummated until she was 9... which... is kinda sorta young for puberty... but, hey, I'll give that. But lets just say for the sake of argument she had entered puberty at 9. It doesn't bother you that Mohammed, the standard in which all Muslims are suppose to follow, was 'kicking it' with his 9 year old bride when he was in his early fifties? You OK with that? You believe that Muslims should be modeling that behavior? |
Iranian law lol.
Anyway, I wont give into the whims of western morality simply to satisfy people like you. Im not going to try and twist or bend anything just to please you. I only please Allah, and its all for Him alone. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
Iranian law lol.
Anyway, I wont give into the whims of western morality simply to satisfy people like you. Im not going to try and twist or bend anything just to please you. I only please Allah, and its all for Him alone. |
And was Mohamed setting an example for you to follow? If he is suppose to be the example for all Muslims to follow... I would think you would be defending his precedent...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
Iranian law lol.
Anyway, I wont give into the whims of western morality simply to satisfy people like you. Im not going to try and twist or bend anything just to please you. I only please Allah, and its all for Him alone. |
And was Mohamed setting an example for you to follow? If he is suppose to be the example for all Muslims to follow... I would think you would be defending his precedent... |
What is clear is that I wont comprimise on my religion just to please you. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
Iranian law lol.
Anyway, I wont give into the whims of western morality simply to satisfy people like you. Im not going to try and twist or bend anything just to please you. I only please Allah, and its all for Him alone. |
And was Mohamed setting an example for you to follow? If he is suppose to be the example for all Muslims to follow... I would think you would be defending his precedent... |
What is clear is that I wont comprimise on my religion just to please you. |
I'm not asking you too... I wouldn't think of even asking you too. That is not the purpose of my question. You are avoiding my question because I know you won’t or can’t admit what I’m asking.
You, as a Muslim, are to follow the example the prophet set... and all I'm asking here is if Mohamed, the founder of your religion... the example you are to emulate... set a good example for you to follow by marrying a 7 year old gir,l and then consummated the marriage when she was 9... all the while he was... what? 53?
Is that the example you are following? Is that the example Muslims call on all non-Muslims to follow?
Perhaps we can take this one step further where Mohamed marries the 'former' wife of his step son... is that another example all non-Muslims are called upon to follow? Come on Tip… did Mohamed set a good example or not… one that you would follow?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Waqar-Daniel
Tadpole
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Lahore, Pakistan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Let me ask TWO questions.
1. What was the age of Fatima, daughter of Mohammed when she got maaried to Ali? I ask this question because according to Hadiths, Fatima got married when she reached maturity. This answer will surely make it clear, that what was the age of marriage among Arabs.
2. Why did Mohammed forbid Ali to take more wives while Fatima was alive?
God bless
_________________
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16) |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Waqar-Daniel wrote: | Let me ask TWO questions.
1. What was the age of Fatima, daughter of Mohammed when she got maaried to Ali? I ask this question because according to Hadiths, Fatima got married when she reached maturity. This answer will surely make it clear, that what was the age of marriage among Arabs. |
19?
| Quote: | | 2. Why did Mohammed forbid Ali to take more wives while Fatima was alive? |
Dunno... cause he knew that Fatima was like most women and had a jealous streak?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Whether we think of Mohammed as good or as evil,
we are told by God to love Mohammed just as we love God, who says that He God is good and evil too.
Isaiah 45:7
7I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Deuteronomy 32:39
39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:
I kill, and I make alive;
I wound, and I heal:
neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Matthew 5:43-48
43Ye have heard that it hath been said,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
for he maketh his sun to rise on *the evil* and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 25:35-45
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me:
I was sick, and ye visited me:
I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,
Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee?
or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in?
or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick,
or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto *one of the least of these* my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying,
Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying,
Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these,
ye did it not to me.
In Christian Love of Jews, and Christians, and Muslims, and Hindus, and whoever is the least of these,
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Waqar-Daniel
Tadpole
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Lahore, Pakistan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Whether we think of Mohammed as good or as evil, we are told by God to love Mohammed just as we love God, who says that He God is good and evil too. |
Atoz to be very honest, I do not know from where you got this idea? I have never come across any verse in the Bible which says that we have to love any person whether friend or enemy as we love God. In Jewish faith it is called BLASPHEMY. Loving God means worshipping God. Even though nice try freind, to redeem Mohammed by quoting verses from the Bible.
Second thing is that we are discussing a part of history and you cannot deny that took place in the past and is also recorded, authenticated and approved by Muslim Scholars in the form of Hadiths.
Now coming back to the questions I asked:
| Quote: | | 1. What was the age of Fatima, daughter of Mohammed when she got maaried to Ali? I ask this question because according to Hadiths, Fatima got married when she reached maturity. This answer will surely make it clear, that what was the age of marriage among Arabs. |
I asked this question to determine the regular age of a young girl to be married. Mohammed had different standards for his followers and used different standards for his family.
Most scholars and Hadiths put Fatima's age between to 16 and 20 at her wedding and Ali's age is ranged between 20 to 23 years. Yet Mohammed married a child - if this was the custom of Arabia in Mohammed's time, then why Fatima was married as a young woman and not as a child?
The interesting point to note is that Mohammed rejected Abu Baker (Father of Ayesha) and Umar (Father of one of the wives of Mohammed) to give Fatima as wife because they were old. He simply refused them saying that he is waiting for allah's command. Allah's command did come for a younger age person.
Abu Bakr and Fatima became great enemies that Fatima was killed with her unborn 5 months child. If Abu Bakr had problems with Ali, then why Fatima was killed? Even this grudge continued between Ayesha (daughter of Abu Bakr) and Ali;
"O how I wish, the earth had split open or the sky had fallen on earth if Ali has become the caliph. Now I cannot go to Medina. I shall return to Makkah." (Kamil, History, Vol. III, p. 105)
| Quote: | | 2. Why did Mohammed forbid Ali to take more wives while Fatima was alive? |
I would say Mohammed had first hand experience of uncontrollable jealousy among many of his wives. Ayesha was too jealous of Khadeja and was always using derogatory remarks against her.
Therefore, he forbade Ali not to marry while Fatima was alive because he knew that Fatima will be treated bad by younger wives of Ali. After Fatima's death Ali married many times.
God bless
_________________
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16) |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I just want to know if Tiptronic believes Mohamed set a good example by marrying Fatima (Ayesha - my bad  ) at age 7 and consumating the marriage when she was 9. If all Muslims are to pattern their lives after his... is this a good example to follow?
I did notice how he continues to duck the question... I would be proud to try to emulate Christ's life... why wouldn't Tiptronic be proud to emulate Mohameds?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith
Last edited by Trinity1 on Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Waqar-Daniel
Tadpole
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Lahore, Pakistan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Good question Trinity, well I would put the question this way to Tiptronic assuming if he is a male.
Will he marry his 6 years old daughter to a 50 years old man or will he let his sister aged 6 years marry a 50 years old man? Will any muslim country where they follow Shariah Law, would permit Triptonic to do so? And if the muslim country that strictly follows Shariah Law says NO then what reason will they give?
God bless
_________________
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16)
Last edited by Waqar-Daniel on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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