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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Are women to 'Sit down & shut up' in the church? 1 Cor 1 |
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1 Cor 14:
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Are women still to keep silent in the church? I realize according to the scriptures above that the law of the time dictated that women were treated differently, almost like children of the same time period. Remember the old saying, "Children are to be seen and not heard"?
A few things have changed since then. For one thing, the laws regarding womens' place in society. For another, many women attend church with their children without husbands. Many women in modern times are divorced or widowed and so are heads of households. If a woman were a widow back in those times, the church was expected to embrace the woman and her family. Communities have become larger and churches often don't help widows. It is up to her. This type of attitude may have served well in Pauls day but in todays society, it could only serve to hold entire generations back. In a lot of instances, the bridge between God and children in a family is the woman who is solely responsible for their upbringing.
I need help on this one.
Thanks,
Much Luv  
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Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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does a man still have to love his wife like CHRIST loves the church and provide for her?...i mean i know he used to have to but things have changed...a woman can work now and get the same level of education as a man...she has opportunities in many instances that a man does not have....her role has changed...
they are is not the same type of women that women were back then and they proudly admit that...even in the church they often say they are free and independant....and they can, even in marriage, make thier own decisions and the age of submission to a man is over....so then...
if the woman is free...the man must be too.... |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3369
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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hi luvnlife. I'm not going to be able to help you on this one, I'm afraid. My mother and I have discussed this a few times and of course it pops up on the boards often enough. One of the questions I always have is if our gathering together on the boards can be considered a gathering of the church, in which case women would be breaking Paul's words all the time. He says, women should keep silence as is shown in the law, but I've never been able to find a reference to this in the OT law unless one assumes Paul means the shortage of the female voice in the OT, which idea just occurred to me this very moment. 
My mother and I have chosen to basically leave it alone, although we agree we wouldn't become pastors or priests. I've never really been able to understand these scriptures and the other reference in Timothy.
The way I look at it is that if I was seriously breaking some commandment by speaking on these boards, then I don't believe I would continue in God's favor by receiving the amount of growing instruction that I do. IOW, it would manifest itself in chastisement of some sort and I've never felt that.
So, basically, I don't go there.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Key of Twilight
Big Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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It has to go back to some kind of contextual thing. Some social law or something back then but it could have some meaning today though i am sure that meaning is not the same as if you take it literally... If we had a historian around they might be able to tell us...
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Nowhere does the Bible state that the sexual orientation of homosexuality is sinful — it merely instructs anyone, gay or straight, that any sexual act that does not spring from a place of love, respect and commitment to the other person involved is sinful. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Key of Twilight wrote: | | It has to go back to some kind of contextual thing. Some social law or something back then but it could have some meaning today though i am sure that meaning is not the same as if you take it literally... If we had a historian around they might be able to tell us... |
In the 'old days' women sat on one side of the room....and the men, on the other side of the room.
And the women would ask their husbands ( across the room) what was meant by the preachers words, thus the command to keep quiet for women.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Key of Twilight wrote: | | It has to go back to some kind of contextual thing. Some social law or something back then but it could have some meaning today though i am sure that meaning is not the same as if you take it literally... If we had a historian around they might be able to tell us... |
In the 'old days' women sat on one side of the room....and the men, on the other side of the room.
And the women would ask their husbands ( across the room) what was meant by the preachers words, thus the command to keep quiet for women. |
Is this true? How do you know this? I really want to know and I appreciate your input.
Thanks,
Luv:)
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Key of Twilight wrote: | | It has to go back to some kind of contextual thing. Some social law or something back then but it could have some meaning today though i am sure that meaning is not the same as if you take it literally... If we had a historian around they might be able to tell us... |
In the 'old days' women sat on one side of the room....and the men, on the other side of the room.
And the women would ask their husbands ( across the room) what was meant by the preachers words, thus the command to keep quiet for women. |
Is this true? How do you know this? I really want to know and I appreciate your input.
Thanks,
Luv:) |
Yes, its true.
BUT, the material I got this information from was obtained a long time ago, back in 1983.
Sorry about not having the material with me today, as it was lost some time ago in the move I made from one house to another.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Luv,
There are numerous resources regarding historical, anthropological, archaeological studies and understandings of biblical times and how they relate to the writings of scripture (in particular the NT).
This information is more readily accessed during theological education in seminaries, universities and such, but still can be found in books available at your local bible bookstore.
As with any field of study like this, the depth and breadth of the research is vast, so easy to post references are sometimes hard to come by.
I write this in response to your question that I've seen a few times in various threads regarding the writings of Paul where you indicate that we don't know the reasons surrounding the issues Paul addressed and you ask "how do we know this?"
I wish I had a clear, easy to access book regarding this subject that I could refer you to, but we truly are discussing hundreds of years of research and academia by hundreds upon hundreds of scholars, archeologist's, anthropologists, historians, etc.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Danno
Not So Newbie
Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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This is a fun question. I love wrestling with this oft-debated topics, and I think God digs it when we do it as well. Digging in, asking questions and a true desire to understand his word and his will for our lives has gotta make him smile. That being said, these are my thoughts on the topic, a topic that I'm still not even sure what the answer is.
I'll start with 1 Cor 14:34. I feel we have to remember the context of the letters to Corinth (at least as I understand them). At the time the church was in turmoil, and Paul wrote these letters in response to reports of what was going on their. I don't thing he was instructing women to "sit down and shut up" at all. 1 Cor 11:5 clearly allows women to pray and prophesy. I agree with the above poster that they need to wait to ask questions of their husband at home so as not to cause disturbance in the church. Obviously, if the women saw their husband as the spiritual head of the family, any questions she had or guidance she sought would be directed toward her husband. It might generate some ruckus someone was speaking in tongues and she hollered out across the room "Hey Steve, what's that guy saying?"
Now heading over to 1 Timothy 2:11, for me this one is a little more difficult to grasp. And I definatly have more questions here than I have answers. Was this just a local instruction. In verse 12 he says "I do not allow..." Was this just a statement of his practice? Somehow I don't think so. What about Phoebe? As a deaconess, did she just lead other women? There have been several women who have been...and still are...influential in my spiritual growth. I've learned a lot from them. I'm fairly sure that the Bible prohibits women from positions of authority within the church, but the whole "teach" thing...I'm still not sure what that means. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Danno: | Quote: | | I agree with the above poster that they need to wait to ask questions of their husband at home so as not to cause disturbance in the church. Obviously, if the women saw their husband as the spiritual head of the family, any questions she had or guidance she sought would be directed toward her husband. |
Have you ever heard or seen a woman disrupt a work meeting let alone a church meeting in such a way?
Perhaps this was happening in Pauls day so this admonition was given to that church. Is it still a valid admonition thousands of years later when so many women attend church without there husbands? What if their husband is not a good spiritual leader in the home? What if he is actually abusive? What if he does attend church but he is living a double life of duplicity? What if he is misunderstanding or putting his own slant on what the bible says? What if his wife is brighter, more perceptive or more spiritually hungry than he is?
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Danno: | Quote: | | This is a fun question. |
I suppose it is a fun question if you are not a woman who has been held back and held down by the misuse and abuse of these verses.
Women in many religions and in many countries are not treated with the same regard as men and, at least in the case of many religions, these scriptures have been used to explain away this treatment.
I had a stepfather who did not attend church or worship God. Without going in to detail I will tell you that he was very abusive to my mother, my siblings and I. My mother was taught that she had to wear a head covering when praying in the presence of a man as a sign of respect. He showed no respect and had no regard for us but my mother always wore a scarf when she was praying and he was in the room.
Explain that to me.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Danno
Not So Newbie
Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Luvnlife wrote: | Have you ever heard or seen a woman disrupt a work meeting let alone a church meeting in such a way?
Perhaps this was happening in Pauls day so this admonition was given to that church. Is it still a valid admonition thousands of years later when so many women attend church without there husbands? What if their husband is not a good spiritual leader in the home? What if he is actually abusive? What if he does attend church but he is living a double life of duplicity? What if he is misunderstanding or putting his own slant on what the bible says? |
I pose the same question from the opposite prospective. Eph 5:25 says to love you wife as Christ loved the church. What if she is abusive, mean, doesn't love him in return, doesn't respect him, i etc ect. Does that mean in these instances the husband does not have to follow Christ guidance? I think it's clear, just as Christ loves us even when we are all of the above, we must love our wives just the same way...and I know it's hard. That's why we must pick our spouses very carefully.
| Luvnlife wrote: | | What if his wife is brighter, more perceptive or more spiritually hungry than he is? |
That questions makes me smile, because my fiancee IS brighter and more perceptive than I am. At the same time she realizes that, once were married, we have roles to fullfill. She lifts me daily in preparation for that role. And it's a role I take very seriously. As an example, does that mean I will chose our church to attend without considering her input? Obviously not, because ultimately the role of a leader is one of responsibility, so while I greatly value her insight, I realize that in making spiritual decisions for our family, I am the one being held accountable...as it comes with the role God designated for me...and by getting married I accepted.
I think it's a question of roles. Man and women, husband and wife, in the church or in the home, children and parents, the list goes on. We can only control our own actions, and I feel that in filling the roles, we must trust Gods word and guidance he gives us in those roles. But we live in a fallen world, and many will not follow the word in fulfilling their role, many will pick and chose scripture or twist it to suit their own need. But just as they will be judged one day for their actions, so will we.
I don't know the entire situation you spoke of in the last post, but I do believe our rewards in heaven will soooooo surpass anything we endure here on earth. It's sounds like your mother was firmly rooted in God's word, and your stepfather was not. If that was the case, I believe that the more we endure here on earth in keeping to Gods word, the greater the reward in heaven. I guess the point I'm getting at, is that I feel we cannot let the actions of others, or a change in culture, deter us from what God has instructed us to do.
Finally, I apologize is the "fun question" remark put you off. Just like the questions I brought up from Timothy, it's "fun"...as in enjoyable...for me to study, research and learn and discuss the intent. I did not mean that the situations that can arise from such questions were anything less than serious. |
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