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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1511
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: Islamification of Europe and Jesus in China |
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The header may be a bit misleading for what follows, but it's honestly more for me to follow-up on (hate it when I lose a thread  )....
I've been watching these 2 events with some interest...
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1650
Europe is Islamifying mainly due to: a) Huge influx of Muslims into Europe that want to retain their ethnic identity, b) 1960s era Socialism policies that have led to the "Church of Multiculturalism" and c) decreased "active" Christians in Europe...
China is converting to Christianity because a) Christian missionaries have been busy and b) Communism destroyed Buddhism but wasn't an adequate replacement...
Anyway, this got me thinking about some of Albert Einstein's thoughts on religion:
In short, he said man has always looked for "higher power" that answers the quests "what was that" when things go bump in the night and provided the hope of protection....ancient man's God was also paternal and lots of "stick" little on the "carrot"...this is reflected in the Old Testament texts...
"Modern Man" grew less afraid of the dark and got more organized in his social structures...so, fear of the dark gave way to fear of "what's next"...The New Testament presents a moral "God" and a promise for a better life "hereafter"...in short, "hope".
Einstein also believed that some people could move beyond an "anthropomorphic concept of God" and accept a "cosmic religious feeling"...
In this view "[man] has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion.
A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes.... A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."
I'm not saying I'm as smart as old Al, but I like this
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8320
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Islamification of Europe and Jesus in China |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." |
... In that case it sounds like we're in a poor way! Fear of punishment and greed for heavenly rewards are the two principle motivating factors in pretty much every single religion on the planet, and they always have been.
Even in Hinduism (which is supposed to be a totally kind religion) there's always the massive Karmic threat of being reborn as a worm in your next life hanging over your head if you do something bad.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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While Einstein may have been brilliant in his field of physics, he was stunted in his religious life. Even in physics though he spent the last years of his life trying to refute Quantum Mechanics and never could. By the time of his death other physicists had gone far beyond his theories and while relativity is not totally ignored, is now considered "non-cutting edge."
I have not read the new book on Einstein so I am not freshly up to date on any of his religious stances but as a non-practicing Jew he would not have likely been the type of person who would give good Christian thoughts for us. From what little I've read about him his religious writings if there were any, probably ended up within the new age movement.
Einstein certainly was a fascinating individual though and the physics parts far out stripped whatever religious sentiment he might have had.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8320
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| dim12trav wrote: |
I have not read the new book on Einstein so I am not freshly up to date on any of his religious stances but as a non-practicing Jew he would not have likely been the type of person who would give good Christian thoughts for us. From what little I've read about him his religious writings if there were any, probably ended up within the new age movement. |
Einstein was an atheist. His spiritual views were virtually identical to my own!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1511
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Einstein was an atheist. His spiritual views were virtually identical to my own! |
hmm...I'm not sure I'd say he was an atheist...maybe...but his thoughts make the "need" for God irrelevant...it removes the paternal aspect definately...I think (without really being able to voice it as effectively) that I'm in Einstein's camp too...that's why I've described myself as a "weak Deist"....anyway, I thought the whole thing interesting...
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8320
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
hmm...I'm not sure I'd say he was an atheist...maybe...but his thoughts make the "need" for God irrelevant...it removes the paternal aspect definately...I think (without really being able to voice it as effectively) that I'm in Einstein's camp too...that's why I've described myself as a "weak Deist"....anyway, I thought the whole thing interesting... |
Einstein was definitely an atheist. He believed that there is no such thing as a personal God, or a God that has a consciousness by any normal definition of the word. He basically believed that the entire universe when considered as a whole is God and that it contains many wondrous things.
But that's basically what I believe. If you're definition of God is this broad, then it's basically meaningless. If I'm an atheist, then so was Einstein.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Without a doubt Einstein was a "lapsed Jew." Which says far more than his being atheistic (which he was). Atheism dwells within the lapsed Jewish population, a result of the many travails the Jews have suffered down through the centuries.
Many Jews fell into atheism because they just couldn't see God's hand in the suffering they had to deal with. Most of them were ignorant of their own scriptures and the promises of God also. So instead of holding onto God in spite of the pain, they just went further and rejected the very God they saw as having rejected them. Not an uncommon human reaction to the events.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8320
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dim12trav wrote: | Without a doubt Einstein was a "lapsed Jew." Which says far more than his being atheistic (which he was). Atheism dwells within the lapsed Jewish population, a result of the many travails the Jews have suffered down through the centuries.
Many Jews fell into atheism because they just couldn't see God's hand in the suffering they had to deal with. Most of them were ignorant of their own scriptures and the promises of God also. So instead of holding onto God in spite of the pain, they just went further and rejected the very God they saw as having rejected them. Not an uncommon human reaction to the events. |
Sure, but Einstein became an atheist at like the age of 12, which was WELL before the holocaust.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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P123... you forget they were persecuted in Europe since forever, it wasn't just German holocaust that did it. That was not even the first time Jews were killed off, just the most "efficient" attempt.
For a culture which claims itself as God's chosen (the Jews)they were treated like the scum of the Earth (mostly by the RCC by the way.)
Remember that the gentiles were grafted into the tree and the Jews were set aside until the "times of the gentiles was over". Granted they have a valuable part to play during the end times, but until then the church stands as God's focus not the Jews.
Anyway Einstein was not even amongst the first 1000 lapsed Jews who had become Atheists. There was a pattern. And partly I think was a reason for God to allow the German Holocaust. It certainly focused the Jews on who they were and set them on the road towards their new state.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1511
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dim12trav wrote: | | And partly I think was a reason for God to allow the German Holocaust. |
now see...this is the kind of thinking I just can't take seriously....God doesn't "allow" anything...or rather, he doesn't "not allow" anything, therefore, he "allows" everything....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8320
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | dim12trav wrote: | | And partly I think was a reason for God to allow the German Holocaust. |
now see...this is the kind of thinking I just can't take seriously....God doesn't "allow" anything...or rather, he doesn't "not allow" anything, therefore, he "allows" everything.... |
If your religious leaders have been ramming the fact that you are a member of the chosen people down your throat for your whole life and then your whole family ends up being killed in Nazi death camps, it kind of makes you wonder how 'chosen' and 'special' your people are to God...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | dim12trav wrote: | | And partly I think was a reason for God to allow the German Holocaust. |
now see...this is the kind of thinking I just can't take seriously....God doesn't "allow" anything...or rather, he doesn't "not allow" anything, therefore, he "allows" everything.... |
If your religious leaders have been ramming the fact that you are a member of the chosen people down your throat for your whole life and then your whole family ends up being killed in Nazi death camps, it kind of makes you wonder how 'chosen' and 'special' your people are to God... |
Jews have been persecuted since the beginning of time when Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. This ultimately benefited the Jewish race; they were able to avoid extinction during the food drought. Joseph was predestined for his position. Don't forget Esther, she prevented the Jewish genocide of her day; she was born for that particular reason, to preserve the Jewish line for the coming of Jesus. They've suffered a life of persecution just as Jesus himself did still, they are God's chosen people, and they will experience redemption.
Yes, God allows certain circumstances good/bad, but he promised that everything will work together for the good of those who love God, and are called according to his purpose. So whatever comes our way, there will be a beneficial conclusion.
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For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.
Proverbs 23:7
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8320
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
Yes, God allows certain circumstances good/bad, but he promised that everything will work together for the good of those who love God, and are called according to his purpose. So whatever comes our way, there will be a beneficial conclusion. |
That's easy for you to say. Maybe if you were Jewish and your entire family was murdered in Nazi death camps, your faith would be tested as well...
The holocaust turned a lot of Jews into unbelievers.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2672
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: |
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But in Einstein's case the Holocaust was after his atheism.
I am sure that you atheists out there just dont go with the "punishment theme" within Jewish history but for the Bible believing people out there it is well written about within scriptures. Not even up for debate for those who know their Bible.
Einstein was quoted as saying: "Imagination is more important than knowledge...
Albert Einstein
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941
Lastly when confronted with Quantum Mechanics he wrote:At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play dice.
Albert Einstein, In a letter to Max Born, 1926
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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