Was Mohammed Evil?

P1234567890 · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject:

Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage?
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Tiptronic · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject:

Tiptronic · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:41 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:54 am Post subject:

Tiptronic · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject:

Negative Overload · Big Goldfish Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 66

Wait...do I have this straight?

The marriage and deflowering of the nine-year-old...is ok because a bunch of people said she was a woman?

Did people back then really think starting puberty was a sign of readiness for the world of adulthood, i.e. marriage, sex, and childbirth? Not going through it, but STARTING it?

And even if they did...does that still make it right, or even OK?

Or is this one of those "Well it was acceptable back THEN!" arguments? I'm not sure it is, since someone's arguing it's OK from the present...

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Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1511

no, you've pretty well got it right...

In Islam, there is the Koran (the word of God as told to Mohammed) and the Haddith (the biography of Muhammed and his closest followers)...both were originally oral traditions that were later written down (by other male followers)...

so, yes...you're understanding what he said as they intend it....despite how it conflicts with every Enlightened occurance since the 1100s....

The story of Aisha and Mohammed was even recently used as a clarification of marriage laws in (Egypt? Saudi Arabia? I forget which....I can find the article, but will take a bit)...so, yes, this is still used today.
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P1234567890 · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:00 am Post subject:

In fact, some sources say that Aisha was only 6 or 7 when she was betrothed to Mohammed, but that the marriage was only consummated when she was 9...

In any case, Mohammed was in his 50s at the time, so I'm going to just throw this one out there:

It's NEVER ok for ANYONE to have sex with a nine-year-old, and it especially isn't ok if he's old enough to be her grandfather!!!

The funny thing about Tiptronic is that there is considerable debate within Islam about how old Aisha was when Mohammed had sex with her.

Normal Muslims who want to paint Mohammed in the best light possible insist that the scriptures show that Aisha was 19 years old at the time (which is still pretty gross, if you ask me).

But Tiptronic is making a VERY unusual (and perverse) argument. He's saying that Aisha was 9 at the time but that it was ok... How messed up is that???
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Ana · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject:

You know, historically, puberty was indeed the landmark for when marriage (incl. consummation) became "ok", and clearly Mohammed and Aisha fit into that period of history.

Further, it's "ok" everywhere else in the animal kingdom; it's only since we became more aware that we've realized that it's not necessarily "ok" just because the participants started puberty. Marriage, consummation, and everything that comes with them, have more meaning now - more to be ready for - than is historically so, and for the simple reason that we've made it more than it initially was.

Now, obviously Mohammed and Aisha were part of an era where gender equality was, shall we say, not prized. However, their marriage (etc) was acceptable in that time because of the puberty issue and because women did not share the rights that they do today, in western culture. In his time, Mohammed was not commiting paedophilia and he was not commiting rape. If he tried it today, there'd be much more outcry. Who's to say that he would try it, though? Perhaps in this day and age, he might also have played by our rules.
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P1234567890 · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:59 am Post subject:

You can't make that argument to defend him, though. Religious people see the world in complete black and white. Morality is absolute. You always hear them say stuff like, "If it wasn't ok back then, then it's not ok today.", and some version of, "You atheists with your moral relativism..."

So in this case they get skewered by their own beliefs. If pedophilia and child rape are wrong today (and clearly they are), then they were clearly wrong and sinful back then as well.

You and I might be able to see morality in a more contextual way, but they sure can't; they need it to be absolute! Wink

_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Ana · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:33 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:28 am Post subject:

Ana · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: