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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7664
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
If I were Emperor of the Universe... 
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Let's not get ahead of ourselves here... You're still only emperor of the solar system.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
It would not be come one come all. It would not be based on inconvienence. It would have to be based on Doctor/Patient testimony. It would have to come before a court of law just as the death penalty is.
The situation would have to be judged and to see if there are other options first. In most cases it would be illegal, and in very rare cases it would be legal. It would have to depend on the circumstances and the testimony.
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So you think it's ok for you to impose your moral beliefs on others? What if they don't agree with your opinions? Why are you right and why are they wrong? I think that this is a very weak argument, because you don't even have any good scripture backing you up... Even if the Bible is God's infallible word, I don't see your argument.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Not evil, ignorant. A teenager finds out she and her b/f got caught. She goes to the clinic. They make abortion an easy out. Instead of being held responsible for their actions they are given a get out of trouble with no consequences paid pass. Most people that get into trouble are scared. I understand this believe me. And it's a lot easier to hide your mistakes than it is to face them.
To me P, the act of abortion itself is evil. The people recieving them are the ones being led to make this decision. It's the ones who are leading them to it that are in my opinion against life and other alternatives.
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I disagree with your entire concept of 'getting caught'. There is nothing wrong with premarital sex. I think it's a *really* bad idea to wait until after getting married to find out whether or not you and your partner are sexually compatible.
What if the teenagers and their parents disagree with you that premarital sex is bad? What if they don't think that the kids "got caught" and that they aren't running away from their responsibilities or taking the easy way out? What if their entire viewpoint on the subject is totally different than yours? Is it still ok for you to force your beliefs upon them?
| lone-traveler wrote: |
It's like if you were in a hit and run and someone tells you just destroy the car so no one will ever find the evidence to the crime. And after a while everybody starts doing it. what happens to the victims here?
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But everyone (or at least 99.9%) of people agree that hit and runs are bad. People most certainly do not agree that abortions are somehow immoral. It's more of a 50 / 50 split on that one. Why is it ok for one group to force its beliefs on the other? How would you feel if the 'pro-choicers' would force some of the 'pro-lifers' to get abortions?
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Even God himself gives people two options. Choose good or choose evil. He also tells us what the results will be from both of those decisions. So if God respects a persons right to disagree with him, then who am I not to.
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But you said that you would take away many abortion rights and that it would be much harder to get an abortion if you were emperor of the universe! So you fundamentally don't respect their rights to disagree with you on the subject of abortion because you think it's ok to force your beliefs on them.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
I judge a lot of actions that people do. Not necessarily the person commiting the action. Because every circumstance is unique. And every individual is different.
But the actions themselves are either good or bad.
And I don't believe in the theory that the ends justify the means. All things need to be considered.
We all judge P,
it's just a matter of knowing how to use good judgment or not. And here again it is based on an individuals faith or belief in what that good judgment is.
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But doesn't the Bible say, "Judge not, lest you be judged?" Was it Jesus who said that? I don't see that it distinguishes between actions and people...
In any case, there is no good scriptural support for being anti-abortion, so I just don't see where the moral underpinnings of your argument are coming from...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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You see P,
I'm human. I am not the judge. Never applied for that role. Wouldn't want to sit in that seat.
I say, If I were then this is the way I would do it.
I feel as though I have been immensely blessed by being one of the least in the church..
I do not "impose" my beliefs on others, I simply explain what and why I feel the way I do. If you don't agree with me then that's your decision. Who am I to dictate how you run your life? I have enough trouble running my own.
You want scriptural argument?
what for? You don't believe it anyways, so I talk to you on a person to person basis..not based on "religions" and "ideologies" or "theologies" because your coming to me from a non-believers point of view..I'm coming back at you with my personal opinion. Not necessarily based on the bible in your case, but in my case it is based on it.
You wouldn't see the argument if I came to you with scripture. That's why I'm using my own words.
You say there is nothing wrong with pre-maritial sex and this is your opinion. In my opinion you should wait until your mature enough to handle the situation if pregnancy or whatever should come out of it.
You want to sleep around then your taking lots of different risks...you know this is true. So what do we base pre-mature sex theories on? examples and experience. We've been doing our thang, and it's brought a lot of problems to society. So in order to have it stop reoccuring, well you have to stop doing what's making the problems...elementary...
On whom am I "forcing my beliefs on? I'm not "forcing anything..just sharing my point of view.
| Quote: | | Why is it ok for one group to force its beliefs on the other? How would you feel if the 'pro-choicers' would force some of the 'pro-lifers' to get abortions? |
Ok here's a pregnant girl/woman. I'm on one shoulder saying you shouldn't do this. Your on the other shoulder saying it's ok go ahead...
Neither one of us is forcing the other to make a decision. It's the one standing in the middle that will have to decide.
Now if the law says it's legal, well if that person chooses your way then they don't go to jail and maybe they have have the procedure done with less risk involved. If the law says it's illegal and that person still decides to do it your way, well they may end up dead or in jail. This is true. Same thing goes with any crime.
But not having an abortion is not against the law, neither is there a risk associated with it if you don't have one.
That would be me on the other shoulder.. with the halo..LOL...
| Quote: | | So you fundamentally don't respect their rights to disagree with you on the subject of abortion because you think it's ok to force your beliefs on them. |
No, I respect their right to disagree, however if I were "elected" emperor of the solar universal system..  and this is the grounds I ran on to be elected, then those who electd me..majority vote..would have to uphold the law.
I'm 16 I want to go out and get drunk with my friends. The law says 21, in some cases 18..I don't know if 21 is universal or not.. but if you "get caught" drinking underage there are punishments.
It's the law. Now all 16 year olds may not agree with this law, and there may be more 16 year olds in the whole country than any other age. Does that mean we should change the law because the majority of 16 year olds says they should be allowed to drink alcohol at 16?
Well, we as adults have learned through experience that underage drinking leads to many problems and many risks. So adults raise the age limit till a person is "supposed to be" mature enough to know when to say no more. The same principle should apply to sex. There are many things associated with sex that takes maturity to handle.
| Quote: | | But doesn't the Bible say, "Judge not, lest you be judged?" Was it Jesus who said that? I don't see that it distinguishes between actions and people... |
The traffic light is red. There is a sign posted.."no right turn on red light". The car in front of you makes this illegal turn. Do you follow their example or do you judge for yourself whether to obey the sign or not?
Now I choose not to turn, however the car behind me sees the first car turn and they want to go to. So they judge me and say look at this idiot. There are no cops around and no one cares, why don't they take the turn?
So they decide to go around me and cut me off and take the turn, flipping me the bird, calling me names..yadda yadda... and guess what...there's a cop sitting around the corner...blue light special..LOL...
Now who's the idiot?
Judge not lest ye be judged...
If I judge someone and the thing that they in my opinion are doing wrong, then when I do something wrong I will be judged by the same measure as I judged another.
Judge not lest ye be judged and with what measure ye mete it will be measured unto you.
So if your perfect and have no fear of ever doing anything wrong then you can judge a situation without worrying about the what goes around comes around clause...however, none of us are perfect, therefore we aught not to judge others because we will be judged when we make mistakes too.
But if your willing to be judged..with the same measure you judge..then go ahead.
Everyone has to judge something at some time. It's not that we aren't to judge situations, it's that we need to judge things right.
Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
what is righteous judgment? And how do we apply it?
Hab 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
you want to use scripture P, we can use good sound doctrine as to why we should love life and not seek death. But you will argue that abortion isn't in the bible and neither is fetus. And I will argue that life begins with conception and it is the enemy that seeks to kill and destroy. And it will always come down to my interpretation verses your interpretation. So ultimately you have to go by what's in your heart and what your conscience tells you.
There's a verse here...
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Your going to do whatever it is you have in your heart to do. I may never be able to persuade you to my way of thinking and neither mine yours. All I can do is share with you my thoughts, my beliefs, my faith, my hope.
If were president that doesn't mean that no one would ever break the law. What will be will be.
| Quote: | | In any case, there is no good scriptural support for being anti-abortion, so I just don't see where the moral underpinnings of your argument are coming from... |
It's my heart and my conscience that speaks to me. And I believe it is God that speaks to me through those. So if it is in my heart that something isn't right and holy and good, then my conscience bears witness to what I say and do.
Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. Only God knows and how my conscience reacts to certain situations. So in the end it's God who will judge me. Not anyone else. And if they do what difference is that to me? They don't have the ultimate say over my soul.
Same goes for those who's consciense says it's ok to do what I believe is not ok. Their own conscience will be what judges them. Not me not you. We can judge them and give them the death penalty and kill their body. But God is the only one that can kill a soul permanently.
I do believe in life after death. Many don't. So when their dead, their dead anyways and can't do any more harm any how. Those who believe in life after death have an obligation to be on their best behavior today because tomorrow we will be given new responsibilities and higher positions. And sometimes higher positions are really lower more humble positions...I'd rather be the doorkeeper than sit on the throne myself.
Welcome to Wal-Mart...
Morality comes from the heart..
Hugs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Abortion is nothing more than another encouragement for guys to say, "What the hell let's have sex, and if you get pregnant, who cares? If you do, he'll say, Baby, that's your problem, get an abortion, I'm out of here."
I can assure you young woman out there, that if your BF insists on having sex, he is interested in sex only. Marriage? Forget it. When you tell him you are pregnant, his response will be, "Howdy stranger."
If, for some unlikely reason, you do get married, and have the baby, I wouldn't give it two years, and you will divorce the useless bum, and he won't be interested in supporting you a nickle's worth.
You will be another unwed mother struggling to survive, unless you can unload the kid on your folks - and they don't need your problems. Girls, wise up. Tell him no, and see how long he hangs around. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7664
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Abortion is nothing more than another encouragement for guys to say, "What the hell let's have sex, and if you get pregnant, who cares? If you do, he'll say, Baby, that's your problem, get an abortion, I'm out of here."
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This is an outrageously inaccurate statement. Abortion has MANY purposes, and this is the least of them. You seem to think that doctors performing abortions only do so so that studs can get laid a lot. That just isn't the case. Where do you get this stuff from?
| Pete wrote: |
I can assure you young woman out there, that if your BF insists on having sex, he is interested in sex only.
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This implies that all men who actually do care about their girlfriends / wives never wanted to have sex with them, and that just isn't true. Therefore your claim is not true.
| Pete wrote: |
Marriage? Forget it. When you tell him you are pregnant, his response will be, "Howdy stranger."
If, for some unlikely reason, you do get married, and have the baby, I wouldn't give it two years, and you will divorce the useless bum, and he won't be interested in supporting you a nickle's worth.
You will be another unwed mother struggling to survive, unless you can unload the kid on your folks - and they don't need your problems. Girls, wise up. Tell him no, and see how long he hangs around. |
This is just silly. Virtually all heterosexual men want to have sex with women, and certainly not all of them are the total scumbags you suggest.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7664
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of abortion, my friend just sent me this; I don't know where he got it, but it should be easy enough to verify.
| Quote: |
The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done
early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of
human shape and contained a soul: "Thou shalt not slay the child by causing
abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and
his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being
unjustly destroyed." (7:3)
St. Augustine (354-430 CE) returned to the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of
"delayed ensoulment". He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed
body. 1 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul
is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is
terminated). |
If a certified saint says abortion is ok, then who are we to argue?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Since when was Augustine a "certified" authority on anything, including the Bible and religion, much less medicine. You might as well cite the Three Stooges.
Unfortunately, women tend to be a wee bit gullible in such things, and men tend to lie before they lay. Before one gets into the business of abortion, the whole subject is one of morality. Your philosophy is, "If you enjoy it, do it." If you like speeding down the highway, doing 90 at night, do it. Hang the consequences.
It would be interesting to get a woman's viewpoint on the subject. Are morals that loose these days that most women think nothing of casual relationships? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7664
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Since when was Augustine a "certified" authority on anything, including the Bible and religion, much less medicine. You might as well cite the Three Stooges.
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He was considered a saint, and that was long before the reformation...
And there's nothing in the Bible which explicitly condemns abortions, so his position sounds credible to me.
| Pete wrote: |
Unfortunately, women tend to be a wee bit gullible in such things, and men tend to lie before they lay. Before one gets into the business of abortion, the whole subject is one of morality. Your philosophy is, "If you enjoy it, do it." If you like speeding down the highway, doing 90 at night, do it. Hang the consequences.
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No, this is not my philosophy. I in no way, shape, or form condemn speeding or hedonism. Having sex before marriage is fine, though, as long as it's done in moderation. The only reason to avoid a behavior is if it is harmful. Sex before marriage is not harmful because in the worst case, women can get an abortion.
| Pete wrote: |
It would be interesting to get a woman's viewpoint on the subject. Are morals that loose these days that most women think nothing of casual relationships? |
It sounds to me like you have a pretty old-fashioned view of women. Today, if it's morally ok for men to do it, then it's morally ok for women to do it. If it's ok for men to get laid before marriage (and it ALWAYS has been), then it's ok for women as well.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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This answer is crude, but a friend of mine said it plainly. Both of us are married women over 45 years of age: Every woman is sitting on a gold mine. We could control all the men with our gold because almost all of them want it. The women of today are giving their gold away for free.
Abortion often times is not used to help the woman, but to further debase her as a person. Many women only go the abortion route because their boyfriend or family leave her few options. That is where Christians ought to be working...offering help to pregnant women. There are some organizatons around, but they're not nearly visible enough. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7664
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: |
Abortion often times is not used to help the woman, but to further debase her as a person.
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What are you talking about? The role of abortion is not to debase women. It is not some kind of chauvinistic conspiracy to keep women oppressed. In fact, it is quite the opposite! It gives women options and thereby gives them freedom. If anything, it liberates them!
| cballard wrote: |
Many women only go the abortion route because their boyfriend or family leave her few options.
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Yeah, and that makes abortion a GOOD thing. Abortions HELP women by getting them out of bad situations.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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the hard part is trying to teach them not to get into a bad situation in the first place.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | the hard part is trying to teach them not to get into a bad situation in the first place.
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Might I propose a solution? Allow them to get abortions, finish going to school and educating themselves, have babies that they can afford to educate also, and then people in general will be smarter and less likely to get themselves and others into bad situations like this in the first place...
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if education or money is going to resolve the problem. Respect on the other hand might.
You don't learn respect in school and you can't buy it.
You have to be raised with it. And if your parents don't have it to give to you, then how you going to pass down something you don't possess?
Respect for your self worth, respect for your friends, parents...
respect for your body and others bodies...
there's no respect today..like common sense..it bit the dust.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7664
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
You don't learn respect in school and you can't buy it.
You have to be raised with it. |
... And if both parents are holding down two jobs each in order to support a family that they can't afford, and consequently don't have any time to spend at home teaching morals to their kids, then the kids also won't learn respect. In fact, without supervision they'll just get into trouble.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that's the way God looks at us. We're children and we need rules and discipline. P, it seems to me that what you don't want is discipline. This sexual freedom comes with a price. Sex and love have been separted and that affects all areas of the relationship between a man and a woman which in turn affects family life. These things are the building blocks of society and I see them tumbling down. That's the way I see it. It sure isn't loving one another. How can you call it good? |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: |
You don't learn respect in school and you can't buy it.
You have to be raised with it. |
... And if both parents are holding down two jobs each in order to support a family that they can't afford, and consequently don't have any time to spend at home teaching morals to their kids, then the kids also won't learn respect. In fact, without supervision they'll just get into trouble. |
Got an idea! Let's force everyone to get an abortion and then we won't have a problem with kids at all. |
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