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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6284
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Humans are animals with strong reproductive instincts. It is written in stone that they are going to be fornicating all the time, and nothing ANYONE says about it can change that. You religious folks can threaten them with eternal damnation in the blistering fires of hell (and have), and people will still have sex out of wedlock. |
Better yet, religious people use outright lies to try and scare people away from sex and drugs and other "undesirables." When kids discover they've been lied to about such things, they tend to boomerang.
If you'd (general you) actually tell kids the truth maybe they'd be less inclined towards casual sex and drug use when they discover the lies?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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The other argument I love is how the religious right tries its very hardest to shame women and make them feel bad for having abortions, and then they say, "Abortions are bad because the women feel guilty afterwards."
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6284
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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And then they have the gall to use statistics collected based on attendance at abortion counseling centers to prove it.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | What's the problem with abortions? If a woman has an abortion then she can easily get pregnant at some later date to give birth to a baby that otherwise would not have existed had she not had the abortion. |
There is absolutely no gaurantee that one will ever be able to have more than that one child...
I know..
I was raped at 13...out of fear waited for 4 months to tell my folks. They gave me two options..keep it or give it up for adoption. I opted for keeping and they offered to help. I've been married twice. And I am not able to have any more natural children.
I am blessed with a beautiful daughter and an awesome grandson. If I had opted for abortion... 
there is never a gaurantee that you will ever have a second chance.
If you play, you aught to pay. Responsibility is lacking in today's society...
I didn't play yet I was in a place I shouldn't have been at the time. If I had been "home" like I was supposed to be, well then maybe I never would have had any children at all.
Even though the act was not an act of love or consent, God took something bad and turned it into something wonderful.
Never underestimate God's plan for you in this life. He can take the worst case scenerio and turn it into a blessing. He can also take a blessing and turn it into a worst case scenerio. It's up to you. If you show no respect then you will recieve no respect in return. If you show no mercy, no mercy will be provided at the time when you need it most.
What goes around comes around..it always does.
think before you act. Take responsibility for your actions. If your old enough to be on contraceptions, your old enough to know better. And if you get caught, then you should pay the consequences and not at someone else's expense.
If you can't afford to raise the child there are thousands of other people out there everyday just waiting to hold and love and raise that beautiful child that you are willing to just throw away and give it a loving home.
THINK...you have a brain USE IT.
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Lone, it's really unfair what happened to you. Both the rape and the fact that you couldn't have any more kids are profoundly unfair.
I also applaud and respect you for having the character to raise your daughter, even though you were just a kid yourself, and I don't for a second question your decisions; that's the whole point about being 'pro choice'.
Still, you're giving yourself as an example here, and I'm sorry to say that you are a bad example for this current debate. As you point out, you did not have an abortion, but we are talking about women who did have abortions. In the vast majority of cases, abortions do not affect fertility or sterilize the woman.
In principle I agree with your point that you never know if you'll get a second chance, but with abortion, most women DO know that they'll have a second chance.
In principle I also agree with your argument about assuming responsibility for one's actions. There certainly isn't as much of that going around as there used to be. But again, abortion is a bad example.
If you hit someone in your car, then you should take responsibility. But if you get pregnant, it isn't an issue of responsibility unless you want it to be. It is morally wrong to pull a hit and run. It is NOT morally wrong to have an abortion. Not even the Bible says that it's wrong. And even if it did, there are many non-Christians out there...
Taking responsibility is all about doing "what's right". It is not hard to make the argument that in many cases, having an abortion is the right thing to do, and therefore also the responsible thing to do.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi P123,
you wrote:
| Quote: | | It is NOT morally wrong to have an abortion. Not even the Bible says that it's wrong. |
It's your conscience that tells you if it's right or wrong.
Some have one, some don't.
I'm not judging anyone who has ever made a decision one way or another. I'm just saying there's no garauntee that you will ever have another chance.
I would not have one, but that is me and my conscience.
Others will have to answer for their own.
Peace
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: |
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It's only April...but I already nominate Lone for "Best Human Being on the Planet" again this year  If she wins, that'll make 2 years in a row 
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of "Un-American" (and totally off topic-ish here)
I find it interesting that a woman's right to choose is the Law of the Land and yet hot debate and new court cases continue...
Yet on the Theory of Human Effects on Global Warming, "the debate is over"....
odd? guess it depends on where you stand on the issue
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Speaking of "Un-American" (and totally off topic-ish here)
I find it interesting that a woman's right to choose is the Law of the Land and yet hot debate and new court cases continue...
Yet on the Theory of Human Effects on Global Warming, "the debate is over"....
odd? guess it depends on where you stand on the issue |
It's not; abortion is a 'moral issue' and will NEVER be settled. Global warming is a scientific issue and has an objective answer. That answer has been found, and the vast majority of experts agree that it has been found, so the debate really is over.
The debate is also over about whether smoking causes cancer and whether evolution is true. These are all objective issues, so it isn't surprising at all.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
| Quote: | | It is NOT morally wrong to have an abortion. Not even the Bible says that it's wrong. |
It's your conscience that tells you if it's right or wrong.
Some have one, some don't.
I'm not judging anyone who has ever made a decision one way or another. |
But you are! You are saying that people who have a conscience will decide against having an abortion, and those who don't will decide to have an abortion. You are judging them!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
The debate is also over about whether smoking causes cancer and |
Smoking doesn't cause cancer. You can get lung cancer and never smoke or you can smoke your whole life and never develop cancer. There is a relationship..smoking definately DRAMATICALLY increases the probability of developing (lung) cancer, but it is NOT an A:B relationship.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
whether evolution is true. |
Since when did it become the Law of Evolution. I'm pretty sure it's still a theory...a very good theory. A Theory that really seems to explain observed events really really well...but it is still a theory.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
These are all objective issues, so it isn't surprising at all. |
No, it's a POLITICAL issue...so that's why it isn't surprising at all
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Smoking doesn't cause cancer. You can get lung cancer and never smoke or you can smoke your whole life and never develop cancer. There is a relationship..smoking definately DRAMATICALLY increases the probability of developing (lung) cancer, but it is NOT an A:B relationship.
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I see your point, but you're getting awfully semantic here. By your definition of 'cause', being shot in the head doesn't cause death, and neither does cyanide poisoning. I assert that smokers have such an elevated level of cancer that it becomes reasonable to say that 'smoking causes cancer'.
| Pondering wrote: |
Since when did it become the Law of Evolution. I'm pretty sure it's still a theory...a very good theory. A Theory that really seems to explain observed events really really well...but it is still a theory.
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It is a Law. The only reason it's never called that is because it's in the area of biology and not physics. There are no laws in biology.
For that matter, even the laws in physics aren't true. For instance, Newton's 'universal law of gravitation' is wrong. His law of gravity is certainly less accurate than the 'theory' of evolution.
You are confusing the word 'theory' with 'hypothesis'. Evolution is not a hypothesis. In the phrase 'theory of evolution', the word theory means something completely different.
| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
These are all objective issues, so it isn't surprising at all. |
No, it's a POLITICAL issue...so that's why it isn't surprising at all |
True that. It's the same with global warming... The POLITICAL aspects of the global warming discussion are controversial. The scientific aspects are not.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: |
| Quote: | | It is NOT morally wrong to have an abortion. Not even the Bible says that it's wrong. |
It's your conscience that tells you if it's right or wrong.
Some have one, some don't.
I'm not judging anyone who has ever made a decision one way or another. |
But you are! You are saying that people who have a conscience will decide against having an abortion, and those who don't will decide to have an abortion. You are judging them! |
Your a stickler for sure..LOL..
P123,
I have one body and one mind that I myself have to be responsible for and to answer for. Other people have to answer for themselves.
In my opinion, and in my opinion only, and how it relates to me and my life...Abortion is wrong. plain and simple.
Whether you believe the "blob" is a living being or not makes no difference to what I believe. I believe that from the moment of conception, when blood..which the bible states that life is in the blood, begins to do whatever magic it does to make this blob a living organism, at that very moment it is a human being and worthy of being given a chance in this life.
I also believe that if two people are "planning" in their hearts to have a child and they concieve, that from the time it entered into their heart to have a child it is a child of faith and also is worthy of being given life.
If God himself forsees a reason why this particular child should not enter this world, for whatever reason, then that child will be taken away earlier.
I believe that when one has a miscarriage or the infant dies young then God is sparing them from some other devastation that they would not be able to bear later on.
God says that there is no temptation that God will not make a way of escape for that one. Could be early death is the escape so they won't have to bear such a heavy burden later.
Abortion on the other hand is telling life itself, you have no reason to live. Your not going to make it, I'm not going to give you a chance to breath, smile, feel, hope, sing, dance...have a bf/gf..get married have children, grow old...
It's taking someone else's life into ones own hands and determining whether they are worthy for life.
Kind of like the death penalty only they're not guilty of doing anything but what nature does naturally...fight for survival. To exist.
You know what the hardest part about the argument is?
You have men and women trying to decide on an issue that ultimately effects the woman. I agree it is her body and she should have a right to do whatever she wants to do to her body. I also believe the father has a say in the matter also. I believe the decision should be between the man, woman, and their doctor. I don't believe government should get involved unless it becomes a mandatory law like china where couples are only allowed one child and the rest must be aborted...
Then the people should rise up and confront Herod and say you can't slay all children under two years of age, we will fight you on this argument.
There are medical situations where termination may be the best for both mother or child. God gave us knowledge about medicine for a reason, and that was to heal not to destroy.
So if the mother is healthy and the child will be healthy, then in my opinion termination should not be an option.
There are other resources and options.
I do judge other people according to how I live my life. But whether they choose to do this or that, I judge within myself whether that is something I would do.
Everyone has a right to an opinion and I give mine.
I am only my brothers keeper as far as warning them of the repercussions that can come from making certain decisions, but ultimately the decision is theirs.
However, I don't want to financially support something I myself would not participate in. If there was an option box you could check on your tax forms for where your dollars go that would be great.
Like a line item veto for donations to certain programs they have out there. There's a lot of people that would give and others who would not. And then there's paying for it for yourself...ooohhh what a concept that is..LOL..
It's a hard subject P, that's for sure. But it all comes down to the heart of the person considering the action. And if they choose this or that, then it is their own conscience that will agree or disagree with their decision.
All I can do is give my opinion as to why I say feel think and respond the way I do.
But in the end there are no gaurantees except death and taxes.
I really would like to eliminate the taxes..it's what's causing me death.. 
I will never agree that abortion should ever be the first option. The only time termination should be considered would be for life or death medical reasons. And I do believe that those who are aborted are in heaven with God. And it will be these same ones that have been destroyed that will return one day to judge those who took their lives.
Just because a soul is aborted in this clay house over in this body here, doesn't mean God didn't take that soul and place it in this clay house in that body over there. And somewhere along the line...your sins will catch up with you and you will pay the uttermost farthing. In one capacity or another.
If a child is supposed to have life and a parent terminates that pregnancy, God will find a way for that child to have life, even if it means raising it in another womb. But the one who destroyed the first opportunity for that child will be punished. Some way..some day.
What goes around comes around...
peace
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
I have one body and one mind that I myself have to be responsible for and to answer for. Other people have to answer for themselves.
In my opinion, and in my opinion only, and how it relates to me and my life...Abortion is wrong. plain and simple.
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Sure, that's totally fine, and I respect your opinion. As long as you don't try to force your beliefs onto someone else, I've got no argument with you.
If you were suddenly made supreme overlord of the Earth, would you make abortions illegal?
| lone-traveler wrote: |
If a child is supposed to have life and a parent terminates that pregnancy, God will find a way for that child to have life, even if it means raising it in another womb. But the one who destroyed the first opportunity for that child will be punished. Some way..some day.
What goes around comes around...
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It sounds to me like you think that people who have abortions are evil and that they are sinning. Aren't you judging them here?
Do you respect their right to disagree with your beliefs?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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P123 wrote,
| Quote: | Sure, that's totally fine, and I respect your opinion. As long as you don't try to force your beliefs onto someone else, I've got no argument with you.
If you were suddenly made supreme overlord of the Earth, would you make abortions illegal? |
If I were Emperor of the Universe... 
It would not be come one come all. It would not be based on inconvienence. It would have to be based on Doctor/Patient testimony. It would have to come before a court of law just as the death penalty is.
The situation would have to be judged and to see if there are other options first. In most cases it would be illegal, and in very rare cases it would be legal. It would have to depend on the circumstances and the testimony.
| Quote: | It sounds to me like you think that people who have abortions are evil and that they are sinning. Aren't you judging them here?
Do you respect their right to disagree with your beliefs? |
Not evil, ignorant. A teenager finds out she and her b/f got caught. She goes to the clinic. They make abortion an easy out. Instead of being held responsible for their actions they are given a get out of trouble with no consequences paid pass. Most people that get into trouble are scared. I understand this believe me. And it's a lot easier to hide your mistakes than it is to face them.
To me P, the act of abortion itself is evil. The people recieving them are the ones being led to make this decision. It's the ones who are leading them to it that are in my opinion against life and other alternatives.
It's like if you were in a hit and run and someone tells you just destroy the car so no one will ever find the evidence to the crime. And after a while everybody starts doing it. what happens to the victims here?
Everyone has a right to their own opinion. And everyone has a right to agree or disagree. If I remove this from someone else then it must also be removed from me. Because what's good for one is good for all.
Even God himself gives people two options. Choose good or choose evil. He also tells us what the results will be from both of those decisions. So if God respects a persons right to disagree with him, then who am I not to.
I can commit a crime, go to court, be found guilty, disagree with the judge's decision, try to get an appeal...
that is my right...And in the end it is the judge's decision.
I'm not the judge...all I can do is tell you if you break the "law" you will go to court before the judge. And according to the law this is the penalty for that crime.
If you get caught speeding you will get a ticket and a fine.
I can't tell you how much the fine will be or if you will do jail time, I can only give an outline...I'm not a lawyer..
I judge a lot of actions that people do. Not necessarily the person commiting the action. Because every circumstance is unique. And every individual is different.
But the actions themselves are either good or bad.
And I don't believe in the theory that the ends justify the means. All things need to be considered.
We all judge P,
it's just a matter of knowing how to use good judgment or not. And here again it is based on an individuals faith or belief in what that good judgment is.
But I believe in my opinion, that it is the action that is judged. not because someone is young, old, black,
white, jew or greek, male or female, that judgement should be based upon, but on the action itself.
Peace
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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