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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Violence in American Society |
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Carried over from "Lies" thread to break apart the topic...
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: |
Personally, I think all this gun control or "What can we do?" reaction is an effort to control chaos. People really really really don't like chaos...and what this guy did, was chaos. It makes zero "sense"....it was psychotic, insane, evil, stupid, blah blah blah....an no one likes that...well, maybe the anarchists...
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Actually, contrary to popular belief, anarchists do not want chaos. They believe in a type of government which is highly organized and anything but chaotic.
| Pondering wrote: |
America's culture of violence? Really? Let's compare America's culture of violence to Rwanda, Bosnia, China, Somalia, Southern Thailand...
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If you have to compare American culture to those of primitive and evil countries, then be my guest. I'd hope that you'd set the bar a little higher and compare your culture to countries like Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Germany, Canada, etc.
Out of all of the 'civilized' countries on Earth, America has BY FAR the highest gun crime and murder rate. Why is that? You seriously don't think that having more guns in circulation is a factor?
| Pondering wrote: |
I don't blame "America's culture"...I blame the guy who did it (and he was Chinese it looks like - a foreigner on a student visa...)
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The dude was obviously an extremely skilled marksman. Where the hell did he learn to shoot like that?
| Pondering wrote: |
Colter had some good points (which you echo when discussing how folks here went nuts over a breast but violence is all over)...yet, Hollywood is overwhelmingly liberal...even the action heroes support liberal causes...so, who's spreading the culture?
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I'm not trying to make this a left vs. right thing. American culture transcends politics. You guys have an extremely violent history, and your government constantly teaches its people that it's ok to resort to violence to settle disputes. You don't think this has anything to do with anything?
| Pondering wrote: |
All right...I'll sit down and shut-up. Here's the deal, sometimes people do really destructive things for absolutely no good reason. Period. It sucks. Welcome to Life on Planet Earth, try and have a nice day.  |
So how come stuff like this only really happens in America? What is it about America that causes there to be WAY more shooting deaths per capita than in any other civilized country?
I've given you my hypothesis: liberal gun laws, and a culture and history of violence are to blame. What's your hypothesis? |
OK...I'll look into "anarchist political theory"...I'm sure it's right next to "Jumbo Shrimp" in the dictionary
Fair one about violent cultures...and yes, America is a violent culture with a self-image of rugged independence and a concept that individual has an inalienable right to defend his "life, liberty, and property" ("property" was Thomas Jefferson's original draft...). I have no problem with our "liberal" gun laws. Thing is, most gun crime isn't committed with registered handguns. They're committed with guns bought off the blackmarket. You guys (in Canukland) are beginning to see it as are the folks in Britain where the drug trade is bringing US style drug crime (i.e. shootings) at an increasing rate...I think there is something to the idea that in Europe having an armed populace worried the government (possible Revolution) so they've developed a culture against privately armed citizens. The US was founded on the idea that the government should be afraid of their citizenry...and so we have our current gun policy.
Can improvments be made in the manufacturing/trade sector? absolutely. I don't own a gun, but I know how to use them (pretty well actually)...I actually supporting arming everyone, much like a driver's licence. In states where this has been done, violent crime actually goes down...those domestic violence remains about the same, although "gunshot" vice "stabbing" goes up.
But yes, overall ease of access is a major factor. And the iconic (read Hollywood) image that a gun = power doesn't help.
As for where the VT shooter learned to shoot...who knows? Chinese Army? Gun buff? Natural talent...he shot folks that were mobbed up in a classroom at close range with 2 semi-auto pistols...It don't take Annie Oakley to hit fish in a barrel.
For what it worth...I do think it's ok to resort to violence to settle disputes. Sometimes it's the only thing...especially if you're dealing with party that's already decided to use violence. Criminals (and murderers) are already taking up a gun under the assumption that most folks won't be similarly armed....Do you think he would have walked in there if there was a reasonable belief that 70% of the student body was armed? Maybe..maybe not.
You're probably right about the "culture of violence" being a factor. But this guy was a foreigner. Maybe we need more restrictive student visa laws?
But I'll tell you this...there will always be a market for guns. If you restrict law-abiding citizens from owning them...that doesn't deter the criminals from using them.
My theory...this guy, with malice aforethought, decided to go kill people. He had access to a gun and so he used that. If he hadn't had a gun, it would have been a knife, or gasoline, or bat guano, or whatever...he broke from the laws that govern civil society and chose to lash out.
The 1927 guy in Michigan or whereever used dynamite. So do we ban dynamite?
It's sad. It's un-understandable. It's Life on Planet Earth. You can either accept that or continue to scream into the vacuum.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Violence in American Society |
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| Pondering wrote: |
OK...I'll look into "anarchist political theory"...I'm sure it's right next to "Jumbo Shrimp" in the dictionary
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No, seriously, I also used to believe that anarchy is all about an absence of government. It isn't. Anarchist political theory is extremely well-developed. Apart from the communistic aspects of it, it is a fantastic system of government. It's basically hyper-democracy. The whole idea is to avoid a concentration of power as much as possible.
| Pondering wrote: |
Thing is, most gun crime isn't committed with registered handguns. They're committed with guns bought off the blackmarket.
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And if guns were harder to get in the first place, then there would be fewer on the black market.
| Pondering wrote: |
You guys (in Canukland) are beginning to see it as are the folks in Britain where the drug trade is bringing US style drug crime (i.e. shootings) at an increasing rate...
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And something like 90% of the guns being used in those crimes are being smuggled over the border from the U.S...
| Pondering wrote: |
I think there is something to the idea that in Europe having an armed populace worried the government (possible Revolution) so they've developed a culture against privately armed citizens. The US was founded on the idea that the government should be afraid of their citizenry...and so we have our current gun policy.
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Believe me, I get it. The Founding Fathers understood the concepts of checks and balances very well, and the populace is the 'final check'. The fact is that in some countries such as Norway and Switzerland, the average citizen is armed much more heavily than the average U.S. citizen. Their national defense policies involve every single male above the age of 18 having a high-powered military assault rifle at home with x clips of ammo. A handgun is nothing next to that. And yet they never have any shootings like you guys do in America... Why is that?
| Pondering wrote: |
Can improvments be made in the manufacturing/trade sector? absolutely. I don't own a gun, but I know how to use them (pretty well actually)...
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By contrast, I've never even held one. I couldn't commit a gun crime even if I wanted to. It's a logical impossibility because I don't have a gun. So it's definitely true that stricter gun laws can eliminate gun crimes.
| Pondering wrote: |
I actually supporting arming everyone, much like a driver's licence. In states where this has been done, violent crime actually goes down... |
Yeah, it went down from the stratospheric levels from before, but the level of gun crime is still WAY higher than in any other civilized part of the world.
| Pondering wrote: |
But yes, overall ease of access is a major factor. And the iconic (read Hollywood) image that a gun = power doesn't help.
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That's what I'm saying... Violent gun culture is a major part of the problem. But also look at what your kids learn in school: the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the Indian Wars, how the West was won, Davy Crockett, the World Wars... American history is EXTREMELY violent, and your children are taught that violence works. America is what it is because of violence, and that message gets through to kids loud and clear. It's no wonder that some of them reach for a gun as the first option to settling a dispute on the playground.
Now, I agree that the shooting yesterday had nothing to do with American culture, because the dude was Korean. In this case, it was clearly the gun laws that were to blame. How the hell did a foreign national get his hands on two handguns??? Does Virginia have OUTRAGEOUSLY liberal gun laws?
| Pondering wrote: |
For what it worth...I do think it's ok to resort to violence to settle disputes.
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So do I, but only as a last resort. That's the problem. American culture and movies teach kids to use it as a first resort.
| Pondering wrote: |
You're probably right about the "culture of violence" being a factor. But this guy was a foreigner. Maybe we need more restrictive student visa laws?
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Or more restrictive gun laws... I doubt he brought those guns from Korea... Reducing the number of foreign students in your country is NOT going to directly address this problem; making sure they can't get guns will.
| Pondering wrote: |
But I'll tell you this...there will always be a market for guns. If you restrict law-abiding citizens from owning them...that doesn't deter the criminals from using them.
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And if there are fewer guns on the black market, then fewer criminals will be able to get them; with stricter gun laws, there will be fewer guns on the black market.
| Pondering wrote: |
The 1927 guy in Michigan or whereever used dynamite. So do we ban dynamite?
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Dynamite is banned. It is a controlled explosive and you have to have all sorts of licenses to get it. Maybe guns should be treated like that as well?
Also, you still haven't really answered my question: Why do you think that America has a higher gun crime rate than any other civilized country by like a factor of ten?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Well remember P123 that this country started as a rebellion from the Brits.
People have confused rights and freedoms rights come to us from God, freedoms are bestowed by governments. What we have is not a right to weapons but freedom to have weapons.
This confusion leads to extremists claiming "rights" to do anything they want. We are not born with guns in our hands, there is no "natural rights" to gun ownership however it is a freedom we have come to take for granted and given this latest massacre those freedoms might be further abridged.
It might better be said the privilige of gun ownership, rather than the right to gun ownership since there are already many responsibilities associated with gun ownership that should be enforced.
Our culture grew up as violent from the rebellion of 1776 to the population that settled the land from raw wilderness. It will not be easy to change if it can be changed at all.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| dim12trav wrote: |
Our culture grew up as violent from the rebellion of 1776 to the population that settled the land from raw wilderness. It will not be easy to change if it can be changed at all. |
I'd argue that it goes back even further than that... It's not like the original pilgrims 'played nice' with the natives.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Leaving off the Anarchy in '08 conversation for another thread...some day...maybe...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
| Pondering wrote: |
Thing is, most gun crime isn't committed with registered handguns. They're committed with guns bought off the blackmarket.
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And if guns were harder to get in the first place, then there would be fewer on the black market. |
If they're being produced and there is a demand, market forces (supply/demand) will get them into the hands of those that want them...Again, I point to the smuggling in Canada you mention. They get in to Britain too...
So "gun control" of the law abiding public is not a viable solution. Reduction of production could..but then you can add guns and ammo to the list that include cocaine, chrystal meth, and marijuana to the list of things coming thru our southern borders.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
The fact is that in some countries such as Norway and Switzerland, the average citizen is armed much more heavily than the average U.S. citizen. Their national defense policies involve every single male above the age of 18 having a high-powered military assault rifle at home with x clips of ammo. A handgun is nothing next to that. And yet they never have any shootings like you guys do in America... Why is that? |
Well you kind of answered the question yourself...like Israel EVERYONE is in the militia and is armed. Isn't this an argument for MORE arming of the populace? Second, it's cultural...both of those countries are largely homogenous. Third, and I'm not kidding, they're located in colder climes. I think climate plays a factor in human behavior, to include crime and violence.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
| Pondering wrote: |
Can improvments be made in the manufacturing/trade sector? absolutely. I don't own a gun, but I know how to use them (pretty well actually)...
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By contrast, I've never even held one. I couldn't commit a gun crime even if I wanted to. It's a logical impossibility because I don't have a gun. So it's definitely true that stricter gun laws can eliminate gun crimes. |
What? You won't commit a gun crime because a) you're not a criminal and b) you CHOOSE not to have a gun. If you elected either a and/b, you could do either a/b. Gun laws have nothing to do with that choice.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
| Pondering wrote: |
But yes, overall ease of access is a major factor. And the iconic (read Hollywood) image that a gun = power doesn't help.
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That's what I'm saying... Violent gun culture is a major part of the problem. But also look at what your kids learn in school: the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the Indian Wars, how the West was won, Davy Crockett, the World Wars... American history is EXTREMELY violent, and your children are taught that violence works. |
Semi-agree. We don't teach Might makes Right...our history teaches that sometimes you have to use Might to create a Right...there's a difference. Although, there is some merit to the desensatization/casual approach you mention....
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Now, I agree that the shooting yesterday had nothing to do with American culture, because the dude was Korean. In this case, it was clearly the gun laws that were to blame. |
No it was a psychopath that was to blame. The reason he was able to get a gun was because he had not demonstrated any reason to deny him one under the current laws of Virginia. But the blame rests with that one young man. No one else. He executed a cold, mean, heartless, calculated plan. And that was his, and his alone, evil choice.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
How the hell did a foreign national get his hands on two handguns??? |
He was a resident alien for the past 14 years.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Does Virginia have OUTRAGEOUSLY liberal gun laws? |
Don't know about OUTRAGEOUSLY liberal...here's the law.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
And if there are fewer guns on the black market, then fewer criminals will be able to get them; with stricter gun laws, there will be fewer guns on the black market. |
OK, but that's an argument against gun manufacturing...not ownership.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
| Pondering wrote: |
The 1927 guy in Michigan or whereever used dynamite. So do we ban dynamite?
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Dynamite is banned. It is a controlled explosive and you have to have all sorts of licenses to get it. Maybe guns should be treated like that as well? |
citation? I'll check and update "Dynamite possession"...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Also, you still haven't really answered my question: Why do you think that America has a higher gun crime rate than any other civilized country by like a factor of ten? |
Global warming  No? OK...agree that there is a cultural element to it...and having less people armed is possibly part of it. Add to that a general victim-based-responsibility-less culture that blames everyone but the perpatrator that collides with a "live now 'for tomorrow we die" thug-life culture and I think that's a big part of it....
John Wayne shot bad guys that needed shooting...he didn't shoot up his school, topple the goverment, or uncover corporate-murder conspiracies....
_________________
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Like everyone else, I'm watching this danse macabre....at least this one is actually worth paying attention to vice the Anna Nicole Smith debacle that the media apparently felt was "critical news" 
Here's the story I think the media should focus on:
One of the people killed yesterday was 77 year old Professor Liviu Librescu. He was a professor of engineering science and mechanics who was educated in Romania. He immigrated to Israel in 1978, and then the US around 1986 and became a citizen. Before that, when Romania joined forces with Nazi Germany in World War II, the young Librescu was interned in a labor camp, and then sent along with his family and thousands of other Jews to a central ghetto in the city of Focsani.
On that morning, upon hearing shots in the room next to his, instead of fleeing, he ran to the door, closed it, and held it closed while his students jumped out the window. The killer shot him through the door.
That's courage. That's conviction to doing what is "Right" vice what is wrong. This guy was brilliant, survived the Holocost, refused to swear allegiance to the Romanian Communist Government, and started a "new life" at least 3 times...and in the end...he gave his life so others may live.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048967&page=1
_________________
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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That guy was a hero.
Here is his home page:
http://www.esm.vt.edu/php/person.php?id=10023
All of us academics have web pages like this; our university's flag is flying at half mast today.
Want to know where he got the guns?
Check it out:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html
Virginia's crazy gun laws are to blame for this. Cho Seung-Hui shouldn't have been able to buy those guns. Under Virginia law it's WAY too easy to get guns.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | That guy was a hero.
Virginia's crazy gun laws are to blame for this. Cho Seung-Hui shouldn't have been able to buy those guns. Under Virginia law it's WAY too easy to get guns. |
First...yep. I'm hoping the President awards him the Medal of Freedom.
Second...a psycopath with delusions of grandeur would not have been deterred...he would have found a gun, axe, can of gas, whatever....
to me, it doesn't matter if he killed 1 person or 300...it was evil, unmitigated terror executed to feed his own ego without mercy or compassion....stricter laws wouldn't have made a difference....maybe the scale...but as I said, it isn't more evil because it was 32....it was just plain ole evil 
_________________
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Umm... Agreed on the evil, but there's a big difference between killing one person and killing 32...
Had the guy showed up with a knife, he probably wouldn't have been able to kill anyone before being subdued...
Guns make a BIG difference because they are stand-off weapons.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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that's interesting....
Personally, I don't think the scale matters....killing 1 or 1 million innocents is equally "bad" and deserving of the same consequence/punishment...
If I murder 1 <pick your race/ethnicity/religion> and my motivation is their <color/nationality/belief> is that "less" evil than if I kill 1 million? What is the number where it becomes "really bad?"
In short...it's one of the prices of living in a free and open society...Liberty is the antithesis of Security...
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that murdering one person is a heinous act which should be punished as harshly as possible, but isn't it OBVIOUS that someone who kills 33 people is worse than someone who kills, say, 3?
Is a gang-banger who kills some other gang-banger even remotely as evil as Hitler?
What you're saying just doesn't make any mathematical sense.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Doesn't anyone wonder why the man killed 2 people at the college (2 full hours before the killing spree that left 30 additional people dead and 29 people wounded) and the college remained opened, business as usual? Or why everyone on that campus was not immediately notified of the crime/double murder that took place on campus (especially considering the man at that time was still at large)? Or why the campus is closed for just 1 day after such a brutal, horrendous thing happened there? Have we become so desensitized or so money hungry that this is going to set the standard, become the norm? Are we all just going to be expected to toughen up, get over it and get on with it?
Remember 9/11 when some bosses told their employees to remain in the building and keep working even though they were working in the vicinity of a building that had just been leveled by a plane? What if everyone in that tower (WTC) had been immediately evacuated? Would more lives have been spared? What ever happened to erring on the side of caution?
If people on that campus had been made aware right away or the campus had immediately shut down and students had been instructed to leave, would the death toll have been so high?
I am not sure what the reason is for these crimes. I do know that because some students were not even aware that there had been a crime committed that they became sitting ducks.
Much Luv   
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Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Our society definitely values money over human life. For example, when they were tearing down the building next to mine, they kept the street open because they didn't want to hurt the business by taking away parking spaces. It was totally unsafe, and I watched time and again (and complained officially) as bricks fell into the street.
Luckily nobody in the street was hurt, but eventually the wrecking crew screwed up because they were taking shortcuts and the building collapsed onto the next one over and killed someone.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, but dated article from the BBC on gun crime in Britain:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm
Some factoids from the article:
- Handgun ban implemented in 1997 after a nutcase shot up a school, killing 16 children.
- "the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000"
- "Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime."
- "And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average."
Here's another article from 2003:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2640817.stm
- There were 9,974 incidents involving firearms in the 12 months to April 2002 - a rise from 7,362 over the previous year. (and increase of 35%)
- Crime is still "low" in Britain compared to the US, and overall crime is trending down, but...the trend line is UP from "crimes with guns" since the ban...
Here's some stats:
http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=102&category=factsheets
Some factoids:
- In the year ending June 2005, there were 10,979 firearm offences recorded in England and Wales (excluding offences involving air guns).
- This is a 6% increase from 2003/04 and continues the pattern of annual increases every year since 1997/98.
Remember...Great Britain has a BAN on any private handgun. There is no way to LEGALLY own one. They also severely restrict replica guns and air pistols....and yet....
hmmm, maybe I'm a confused...if you have tighter gun control laws then logically, gun crime should go down...but Britain has severe gun control laws and gun crime keeps going UP? What's the solution? oh, that's right more tighter gun control laws
I think it's a scientific principle that if you observation doesn't match your hypothesis...then your theory is wrong....right?
To address your point:
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Is a gang-banger who kills some other gang-banger even remotely as evil as Hitler? |
No, but not because it's a matter of scale. Hitler targetted innocents. A gang-banger killing another gang-banger is involved in the "game". Now a gang-banger that targets an innocent...he's just as evil.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
What you're saying just doesn't make any mathematical sense. |
That's becuase it's not a math problem...it's a moral problem.
For Luvnlife...reports so far are that the police that it was an isolated domestic incident. Word did go out, but the email system was overwhelmed and crashed...VT has a student body of 26,000. That's nearly 6 times larger than my hometown. Does your hometown "lockdown" when there is a domestic violence event? Unless you have a crystal ball, do you think anyone expected what happened to happen? After the 1st plane hit the WTC, folks initially thought it was an accident. After number 2 hit...folks new what was up and the alarm went out nationwide....all airplanes were grounded....that's the thing about unexpected tragic events..they're so gosh-darned unexpected
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Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: |
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More information on the shooter:
* The English major student had aroused suspicion from his teacher because of the dark and distorted nature of his writings in class. Some students dropped out of the class because of the situation. The teacher decided to work one on one with the loner student. The professor referred the student for counseling, reports are that he did not take the advice. Further, the professor was so alarmed that she reported the situation to police. It's unclear weather VT administrators were also warned as well.
I agree with P123... That materials such as dynamite or chemicals etc are tightly regulated by the federal government. When the right to bear arms was amended to the constitution people had muskets not weapons of mass destruction.
"The right to keep and bear arms did not originate fully-formed in the Bill of Rights in 1791; rather, the Second Amendment was the codification of the six centuries old responsibility to keep and bear arms for king and country that was inherited from the English Colonists that settled North America, tracing its origin back to the Assize of Arms of 1181 which occurred during the reign of Henry II. Through being codified in the United States Constitution, the common law right was continued and guaranteed for the People, and statutory law enacted subsequently by Congress cannot extinguish the pre-existing common law right to keep and bear arms". wiki
I think it's time for the government to consider categorizing guns with much more scrutiny based on their "power" for quick, massive destruction.
Colter
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Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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