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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7709
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | "I propose that we use science and scientific verifiability as our model for reasoning rather than philosophy."
Why use that, what can sicence really prove, perhaps in one sense it can prove what does and does not exist in the concept of natural reality but it fails to prove if reality itself is reality in another sense.
therefore we live in a universe that is a buch of concepts, infact the the universe itself is a concept |
You're kidding, right? People stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago at which point it became painfully obvious that using science was MUCH more useful.
Science works; when we use it we thrive. Philosophy is much less useful. So please stop using philosophical arguments, and use scientific ones instead.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6913
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| P123 wrote: | | People stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago at which point it became painfully obvious that using science was MUCH more useful. |
You're kidding, right?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6116
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | People stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago at which point it became painfully obvious that using science was MUCH more useful. |
You're kidding, right? |
Okay, reasonable people stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago. Irrational people are quite happy with philosophy alone.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7709
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | People stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago at which point it became painfully obvious that using science was MUCH more useful. |
You're kidding, right? |
RevJP, there are many little coffee shops on campus here, and now and then I'll go to one and sit down. More often than not, there's a couple of philosophy students sitting at the next table enthusiastically discussing 'the true nature of reality' or something like that. It's all fine and good, but the bottom line is that it doesn't help them in any practical way. They can't use it to build a longer-lasting light bulb; they can't use it to cure any diseases; they can't use it to put humans on the surface of a different planet.
Their counterparts in, say, the physics department, on the other hand CAN use their scientific research to actually make our lives better and to truly and fundamentally better understand the universe.
That's what I'm talking about: practicality. With the exception of logic (which for historical reasons has been lumped into the category of philosophy), philosophy doesn't translate into tangible results NEARLY as well as science.
I'm not saying that philosophy is stupid (although some of it definitely is; try reading some Hegel sometime); it CERTAINLY has its place and it is very useful at addressing some issues which science can't begin to address. But it's NOT the preferred way of trying to make sense of the universe... That's what science is for. In order to actually get stuff done, you usually have to do more than just think about it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Ok, I'll bite. Go ahead and prove that God exists...
I just hope that you're using the word 'prove' in the same way that I understand it... |
First
Faith is prove that God exists
Heb11:1"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. "
Now I would like to prove that a god exists. Later I Will prove that the One i serve, is the right One.
Observe::::::::::::::::
The Egg
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The Chicken
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Q=Witch came first the Chicken or the Egg?
A= The chicken, because for the egg to hatch it must be kept warm by the chicken and it must be turned over.
But the Chicken had to come from a egg or it evolved or a God created it.
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It could not have come from a egg because there was no Chicken to keep it warm or to turn it over.
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It could not have evolved because the hen and the rooster had to evolve at the same time over millions of years yet due to The Comets, The moon, and rotation of the earth as evidence that the earth can not be older than 10000 years, that is impossible.
Also the male and Female would not know how to evolve
to be able to fertilize each other without a God telling them how to.
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The only logic explanation remains that a God created the Chicken.
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Now to proof that my God is the right one.
Observe
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The computer Screen
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The light the screen reduces
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Q:Witch came first, the Computer screen or the light?
A:The light, because man made the screen to shape light in a more usable way, thus man would not have made the screen if they did not know of the light first.
Observe
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The Sun (just not with your naked eye)
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Light
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Q:What came first the Sun or the Light?
A:The light, because what would the sun produce if their was no light?
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The conclusion is that The God that created the Sun must have created the Light first.
Gen1:3:"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
Gen1:16"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule
the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the
stars also."
This God I Serve!
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Prys die Heer! |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 392
Location: South Africa; Gardens of Pretoria
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | People stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago at which point it became painfully obvious that using science was MUCH more useful. |
You're kidding, right? |
Okay, reasonable people stopped using philosophy to help them understand the world hundreds of years ago. Irrational people are quite happy with philosophy alone. |
Science is a form of philosophy. Science alone cannot prove all.
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Observe
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Time
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Not possible?
Science is something that can be proven and observed ---Time is not
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Using only Science
1.How do you understand the world of Time?
2.How do you proof time exists?
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It is clear that you need basic philosophy rather than plain science to proof and understand somethings.
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Prys Die Heer! |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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P1234567890 Wrote
| Quote: | | RevJP, there are many little coffee shops on campus here, and now and then I'll go to one and sit down. More often than not, there's a couple of philosophy students sitting at the next table enthusiastically discussing 'the true nature of reality' or something like that. It's all fine and good, but the bottom line is that it doesn't help them in any practical way. They can't use it to build a longer-lasting light bulb; they can't use it to cure any diseases; they can't use it to put humans on the surface of a different planet. |
You should really look into philosophy before judging it. Yes there are dumb area's of philosophy I agree. There is a story of a professor giving an exam in which there was one question. Prove to me that the chair that you are sitting in does not exist. In which the student answered: what chair?
But anyway philosophy has done so much for science and mathematics. You would not recognize them today if the philosophy that was used thousands of years ago was no longer in them. E.G. Who first said that the earth was in the shape of a sphere and not the center of the universe? Copernicus? No it was the Pythagorean philosophers that first made this discovery 1500 years before Copernicus. You might recognize the name Pythagorean theorem. So yeah without philosophers like this we might not be able to build a longer lasting light bulb or cure diseases or put humans on the surface of a different planet. Science is built on philosophy it is irrational to thing otherwise. Why should we think that it is any less important now? Why not let the philosophers work with the scientist. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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That reminds me... philosophy is also a prominent part of mathematics. Philosophy deals with ideals and so can conceive of perfect logic, which is central to mathematics.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7709
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | Who first said that the earth was in the shape of a sphere and not the center of the universe? Copernicus? No it was the Pythagorean philosophers that first made this discovery 1500 years before Copernicus.
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As far as I know my history of science, you have both of these wrong. Eratosthenes is credited with calculating the circumference of the Earth to within a few percent error, and he definitely was not a Pythagorean. And Aristarchus was the one who figured out that the Sun is at the center of the solar system. He also was not a Pythagorean.
The Pythagoreans were mystics, and they actually did a lot to HURT science.
I stand by what I said; philosophy has its time and place. I'd even say that it is very important. But it is NOT as useful as science for understanding our universe or improving our lives.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6913
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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what can science do, or has it done, to improve our lives that did not include philosophy as a partner?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7709
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | what can science do, or has it done, to improve our lives that did not include philosophy as a partner? |
It depends on what you define as 'philosophy'. If you define it as thinking about the bigger picture, then I would say that science and philosophy are almost always married.
But if you define it as the teachings of Hegel, Kant, Husserl, etc., then I would argue that their teachings have had very little to do with the development of science.
In fact, some philosophy has even harmed society. A good example is postmodernism.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7709
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | That reminds me... philosophy is also a prominent part of mathematics. Philosophy deals with ideals and so can conceive of perfect logic, which is central to mathematics. |
This is interesting, because it reminded me of a phenomenon which seems to be unique to mathematicians.
Among highly-educated scientists (for example, science professors on a university campus), it is very hard to find devoutly religious people. The number of atheists among the natural sciences is particularly high.
However, every now and then I meet a mathematician who has hard-core religious beliefs. They seem to be able to compartmentalize much more readily than, say, physicists.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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On the flip side, I have an ex who is both Christian (more strongly, I think, as time wears on) and a physicist who is considering going for a doctorate degree. There are anomalies everywhere. I also know a woman who is proudly Lutheran, and also a microbiologist.
But yes, I do see what you're getting at - logically, it is less likely that a physicist would be religious than a mathematician for the simple reason that physicists deal a touch more with reality than mathematicians do. Mathematicians deal with ideals (and by that I mean concepts, loosely) and physicists apply mathematics to the world.
**Edited to add what kind of degree the ex is going for...
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Last edited by Ana on Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7709
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I also think that studying math is in some ways a 'spiritual' experience. Many mathematicians over the centuries have commented on how mathematics deals with things which are perfect, and through studying it you get to know the mind of God, etc., etc.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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justjazz
Sea Monkey
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | It's all fine and good, but the bottom line is that it doesn't help them in any practical way. They can't use it to build a longer-lasting light bulb; they can't use it to cure any diseases; they can't use it to put humans on the surface of a different planet.
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However, if enough people embraced a particular peaceful philosophy, that may help mankind and further the efforts for a non-violent and just society. That would fall into the category of practical I think. |
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