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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: |
My tune remains consistent no matter how much you want to distort what I'm saying. It's about personal responsibility. The fear based desire for people in America to own guns is because we have lost faith in the justice system. I do not own a gun, I do not want guns in my home. We do not teach violence in our home. We teach responsibility for our own behavior. We teach self support. We avoid "blame drinking" so that our children will not become blame-aholics! We abide by the law.
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I'm all for personal responsibility, but that's not what we're talking about here. Some percentage of humans will ALWAYS be irresponsible. They need to be controlled. If America suddenly made it legal for individuals to own nuclear weapons, how long do you think it would take for someone to blow up a city? And obviously the liberal a-bomb rules would be at least partly to blame for that city's destruction.
This is exactly the same thing... Your liberal gun laws are at least partly to blame for this shooting.
| Colter wrote: |
Only common sense would dictate that if people who break the law are not taken out of society then more crime, and fear will be the result. That's people being held accountable for their behavior not blaming others for their behavior.
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And the gunman today WAS held accountable for his actions. Is that going to stop the next school massacre from happening? No! Obviously you're going to have to do something more than just holding people accountable to stop tragedies like this from happening.
| Colter wrote: |
You do make a valid point about gun violence in other cultures. I would support much stricter hand gun control, licensing etc. I would support "one strike you out", you use a gun in a crime your out of society!
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Fine by me.
| Colter wrote: |
BTW, the gunman was Asian.
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And how is this relevant? Do you think that if we stop letting Asians into the country, then that will stop gun crime?
| Colter wrote: |
Another BTW, If Canada was located in Africa or Russia, well, you wouldn't be Canadian. You guys would have to come down off your high horses and think about real national defence issues. Your geographical location allows you to depend on America for your real security!
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Last I checked, America is also geographically isolated between two oceans. Your geography protects you just like ours protects us.
As for you protecting us, that's a load of b.s.... The number of violent gun crimes in Toronto during the past half-decade have been climbing steadily, and do you know where all of those handguns come from? Something like 90% of them come in illegally from the U.S., where your black market is saturated with them.
So yeah, thanks a lot for your 'protection'.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'll get us back on the Empire discussion in a bit...particularly want to address some of Dims' comment....
Also have comments on the gun issue, but can't get my thoughts together at the minute...no personal connection, but it'll take me a bit to sort thru this 
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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On Sept. 11th, crazy Muslims killed about 3000 Americans.
Every year, Americans kill more than 10,000 Americans with guns.
Yet for some reason conservatives are happy to surrender their rights to the Patriot Act, but are not happy to put gun control laws onto the books.
Republicans let the Brady Bill (which bans assault rifles) lapse, but they want to make the Patriot Act permanent. Your leaders are pretty stupid.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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The Assault Rifle Ban did nothing to curb violence because very very very very few crimes are committed with Assault Rifle..the only two I can think of are a nut who sprayed a playground in California (around 1988?) with an AK-47 and the two bank robbers that also showed up in body armor (within the last 10 years)...
But that's really not the issue....
how about this...evil things happen for no good reason.
Today's event was tragic...it was not, as the press is saying "The Greatest Mass Murder in US history"...I think this one was...and no one's ever heard of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_Disaster
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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It's really interesting that you linked to that; I was reading just that Wikipedia article not 5 minutes ago!
Yup, society has a short memory. This was the deadliest 'shooting', though...
As for evil things happening for no good reason... Sure, so the question is what can be done to prevent this kind of thing from happening?
It sounds to me like you don't agree with my assertion that America's liberal gun laws are at least partly to blame... Do you agree that America's culture of violence is at least partly to blame?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
It sounds to me like you don't agree with my assertion that America's liberal gun laws are at least partly to blame... Do you agree that America's culture of violence is at least partly to blame? |
You're right...I don't.
Personally, I think all this gun control or "What can we do?" reaction is an effort to control chaos. People really really really don't like chaos...and what this guy did, was chaos. It makes zero "sense"....it was psychotic, insane, evil, stupid, blah blah blah....an no one likes that...well, maybe the anarchists...
America's culture of violence? Really? Let's compare America's culture of violence to Rwanda, Bosnia, China, Somalia, Southern Thailand...
I don't blame "America's culture"...I blame the guy who did it (and he was Chinese it looks like - a foreigner on a student visa...)
Colter had some good points (which you echo when discussing how folks here went nuts over a breast but violence is all over)...yet, Hollywood is overwhelmingly liberal...even the action heroes support liberal causes...so, who's spreading the culture?
All right...I'll sit down and shut-up. Here's the deal, sometimes people do really destructive things for absolutely no good reason. Period. It sucks. Welcome to Life on Planet Earth, try and have a nice day. 
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Personally, I think all this gun control or "What can we do?" reaction is an effort to control chaos. People really really really don't like chaos...and what this guy did, was chaos. It makes zero "sense"....it was psychotic, insane, evil, stupid, blah blah blah....an no one likes that...well, maybe the anarchists...
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Actually, contrary to popular belief, anarchists do not want chaos. They believe in a type of government which is highly organized and anything but chaotic.
| Pondering wrote: |
America's culture of violence? Really? Let's compare America's culture of violence to Rwanda, Bosnia, China, Somalia, Southern Thailand...
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If you have to compare American culture to those of primitive and evil countries, then be my guest. I'd hope that you'd set the bar a little higher and compare your culture to countries like Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Germany, Canada, etc.
Out of all of the 'civilized' countries on Earth, America has BY FAR the highest gun crime and murder rate. Why is that? You seriously don't think that having more guns in circulation is a factor?
| Pondering wrote: |
I don't blame "America's culture"...I blame the guy who did it (and he was Chinese it looks like - a foreigner on a student visa...)
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The dude was obviously an extremely skilled marksman. Where the hell did he learn to shoot like that?
| Pondering wrote: |
Colter had some good points (which you echo when discussing how folks here went nuts over a breast but violence is all over)...yet, Hollywood is overwhelmingly liberal...even the action heroes support liberal causes...so, who's spreading the culture?
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I'm not trying to make this a left vs. right thing. American culture transcends politics. You guys have an extremely violent history, and your government constantly teaches its people that it's ok to resort to violence to settle disputes. You don't think this has anything to do with anything?
| Pondering wrote: |
All right...I'll sit down and shut-up. Here's the deal, sometimes people do really destructive things for absolutely no good reason. Period. It sucks. Welcome to Life on Planet Earth, try and have a nice day. |
So how come stuff like this only really happens in America? What is it about America that causes there to be WAY more shooting deaths per capita than in any other civilized country?
I've given you my hypothesis: liberal gun laws, and a culture and history of violence are to blame. What's your hypothesis?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Tried to edit for brevity...
I'll start a new thread about violence in a sec..
| dim12trav wrote: |
As to an American Empire.... |
Again, you say this like it's a bad thing...who would you rather exercise influence? Whose military would you rather be spread all around the world? Our military presence globally deters alot of behaviors, adds to their economy, and increases interaction between the local populace and Americans...voluntarily serving Americans... this is bad how?
| dim12trav wrote: |
Rejection of this influence governs many other countries politics, even though it falls on deaf ears most of the
time. |
I don't understand your meaning here...
| dim12trav wrote: |
The Islamic world at least has something that they can point to and say they've been successful to a point at least. |
you're kidding right? Stoning women...a woman must produce 4 men to declare she was raped, otherwise she is punished...enforcement of strict moral codes (no drugs, no premarital sex, no homosexuality, no alcohol) with the death penalty. I know, I know, many Muslims don't adhere to these, but they do so under the risk of death.
| dim12trav wrote: |
Look at Indonesia and their Islamic population the largest Islamic country's population in the world. What possible
connection do they have with a desert culture? |
none, other than Islam was imported as part of the spice trade...
| dim12trav wrote: |
Indonesia has been oppressed by the west for centuries for commercial gain. As an Islamic culture they can offer some resistance/rejection of the west. |
Ok..bunk. They've been an independent nation since 1945. Yes, they were a European colony (for awhile), but they've also been a colony of China so...They've also suffered from their own "nation building problems" to include sepratism, Islamic fundamentalism, communism, and good old fashioned greed and corruption.
FWIW, economically, they're doing OK. Gross Domestic Production 2005 estimate in terms of Purchase Power Parity - Total US$977.4 billion (ranked 15th in the world) - Per capita income (US$4,458) ranks them at 110th (of 179 countries)...not great, but not bad.
As for resistance/rejection of the West...they're (sweeping generalization) one of the most "Western" countries around, at least in the cities however, they're very strict (read brutal) on enforcing civil codes...and really brutal at suppressing sepratists...so, take off the rose colored glasses and look at other countries through the same lens you're applying to the US...you might be surprised.
I'm not saying (nor have I ever) that the US is Utopia. There's lots of room for improvement...but all in all, theres a reason why millions of people are trying to come here...and it's not for the McDonald French Fries.
| dim12trav wrote: |
To think that we dont have an empire just because we dont call it such is ignoring the facts. |
So when are you immigrating to Indonesia?
| P1234567890 wrote: | | So you'd rather be called a hegemony than an imperial power? Fine by me... Six of one, half a dozen of the other. |
No, it's not "six of one, half a dozen of the other."
If we're talking denotation (definition) of words, then "empire" is an incorrect denotation...the correct denotation is "hegemon". That's a fact. A cold, unemotionally laden fact.
If we're talking connotation (meaning in context), then the choice of the word "empire" is emotionally charged to give a negative ("bad") impression.
Here's the deal...US (and generally "the West") concept is that free trade and open markets are inherently good for
societies. Distributes wealth (to those that work for it) and people with good trade relations tend not to physically fight each other. Empires have colonies to provide a) sources of raw materials bought cheaply and b) markets to sell finished goods, usually produced in the "home territory." Check the trade flow between the US and the rest of the world...we ship raw materials to China/Taiwan/Japan/Korea and import clothes/electronics/etc, etc. Not alot of stuff "Made in the USA" anymore.
If there is any argument here, it's that corporations are now Global enterprise, so the old idea of Gov't support to
"National" companies is now bunk...Just take a look at the automotive industry (Fords are made in Mexico, Hondas are made in the US)
So it isn't that I'd "rather" be called anything....I'm just stating a fact. Alot of people (even many in this country)
don't like the fact that US is a hegemon.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
How come you're splitting hairs on this subject, but on the topic of Cheney's making literally a hundred million dollars on the Iraq war, you brush it off as if it totally doesn't matter? |
the horse is dead. Let it go. If you think Cheney is the only politician to get rich off a war, you're deluded. If you
think he conspired to start a war just to make $120 million..c'mon. And you're right...as a part of the whole, it doesn't matter.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: | | So you'd rather be called a hegemony than an imperial power? Fine by me... Six of one, half a dozen of the other. |
No, it's not "six of one, half a dozen of the other."
If we're talking denotation (definition) of words, then "empire" is an incorrect denotation...the correct denotation is "hegemon". That's a fact. A cold, unemotionally laden fact.
If we're talking connotation (meaning in context), then the choice of the word "empire" is emotionally charged to give a negative ("bad") impression.
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In my mind the word 'hegemony' has exactly the same negative connotations as 'imperialism'.
| Pondering wrote: |
Here's the deal...US (and generally "the West") concept is that free trade and open markets are inherently good for
societies.
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And if the U.S. actually believed in free trade and tried to implement it, then you might have a point.
| Pondering wrote: |
If there is any argument here, it's that corporations are now Global enterprise, so the old idea of Gov't support to
"National" companies is now bunk...Just take a look at the automotive industry (Fords are made in Mexico, Hondas are made in the US)
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Yes, and since NAFTA was passed, the amount of trade between the U.S. and Mexico has actually DECREASED. What has increased DRAMATICALLY is the amount of parts that the U.S. sends to its factories in Mexico and the number of finished products such as cars coming back from Mexico. So cross-border material transport has increased dramatically, but you can hardly call that 'trade'.
| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
How come you're splitting hairs on this subject, but on the topic of Cheney's making literally a hundred million dollars on the Iraq war, you brush it off as if it totally doesn't matter? |
the horse is dead. Let it go. If you think Cheney is the only politician to get rich off a war, you're deluded. If you
think he conspired to start a war just to make $120 million..c'mon. And you're right...as a part of the whole, it doesn't matter. |
No, I don't think he did it 'just' to make a lot of money, but how could it NOT have factored into his motivations? Probably not even he could tell you what role his own personal greed played during war planning. It's a conflict of interest, and nobody seems to care!
But why do you think that he's the ONLY person remaining in the administration who keeps insisting that Saddam and Al Quaeda were in bed together? It's obviously because he doesn't want his Halliburton stock to decrease in value before he ends his term and can dump it all.
I predict that he's going to sell it all as soon as he gets out of office. Mark my words.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2658
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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War is a booming business (yes pun intended) and companies like Haliburton will continue to prosper wherever there is a war and it seems lately to be continuously. Remember the US is the armament factory to the world ever see "Lord of War" check out this movie based upon a true story.
Also politicians will always support a heavy arms industry there is so many votes to be had there. It makes war easier when we have already invested in all "the right stuff" and an all volunteer army allows immediate action instead of long debates.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I just don't understand how nobody seems to care what a MAJOR conflict of interest Cheney was in...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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