Lies

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Lies

Here's an interesting factoid for you:

After Saddam invaded Kuwait, America needed to use Saudi Arabia as a staging ground from which to attack Iraq. Saudi Arabia steadfastly refused again and again, so eventually the U.S. made up a story that Saddam was massing his troops and preparing to attack Saudi Arabia, at which point they let the coalition use its land.

It turns out that this was a bunch of lies. Saddam was not massing his troops, and he was not planning to attack Saudi Arabia. Russia declassified its satellite photos from that time, and it shows that the roads were clear and that the Iraqi forces were far away from any staging areas; they were exactly where they were supposed to be, looting Kuwait.

Personally, I have no problems with the U.S. lying to Saudi Arabia, but if you're a Christian, then you probably should have a problem with this, although I'm guessing that most Christians here won't...
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Trinity1 · Emperor of the World Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 3123

Lying to the Saudi's is equivalent to lying to your interrogators during their questioning... you don't trust a word they say to begin with... and if what you tell them keeps from getting a curling iron shoved into your... um... keeps them from taking humiliating pictures of you on a dog leash (now that’s real torture), so what? They got money… and don’t have to invest in snow removal equipment… who cares?

Not that I don't believe you P... but I would like to get a look at your source for this… if you don’t mind.
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P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:04 am Post subject:

Trinity, I'm allowed to use the argument that you just gave, but you aren't, because you're a Christian. The commandment says, "Thou shalt not lie." It doesn't say, "Thou shalt not lie, except when dealing with evil countries or being tortured." Lying is a sin, period, full stop. There is no justification for it. If you're a Christian, then you should condemn your country for doing things like this because your country represents you; it turned you into a sinner.

As for references, here you go:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s02-wosc.html

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/50586247.html?dids=50586247:50586247&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+6%2C+1991&author=JEAN+HELLER&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=1.A&desc=Photos+don%27t+show+buildup

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/dickcheney/defence.html#
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

45degreeN · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:27 am Post subject:

P123 you forgot to go one step further and say that Bin Laden's arguments against having our troops on Saudi Sand lead to his inventing something else like 911!

Bin Laden in his own words talks about our troops profaning the soil/sand of Saudi Arabia. Just maybe without our troops he wouldn't have felt the need to do something as nasty as blow up the twin towers.
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P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:22 am Post subject:

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1506

/sigh....that's both dangerous and delusional thinking...

http://www.greatdreams.com/osama_tape.htm

"UBL: (...Inaudible...) when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse. This is only one goal; those who want people to worship the lord of the people, without following that doctrine, will be following the doctrine of Muhammad, peace be upon him. (UBL quotes several short and incomplete Hadith verses, as follows): "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad." "Some people may ask: why do you want to fight us?" "There is an association between those who say: I believe in one god and Muhammad is his prophet, and those who don't (...inaudible...) "Those who do not follow the true fiqh. The fiqh of Muhammad, the real fiqh. They are just accepting what is being said at face value."
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P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:19 am Post subject:

I went and heard a talk by an expert on Osama Bin Laden, and he emphasized very strongly that the U.S. troops on 'holy soil' was Osama's number one grievance, and that Israel was in a distant second place.

I trust academic experts who speak Arabic fluently, have listened to every single recording that Osama has ever put out, and understand the context of everything he says much more than I trust the opinions of poorly-educated reporters, which is where most people get their information from.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:30 am Post subject:

Incidentally, the 'Surge' doesn't seem to be working:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18072203/

But of course, that's probably Pelosi's fault for demoralizing the troops.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1 · Emperor of the World Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 3123

P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:52 am Post subject:

45degreeN

It seems that Bush has attempted to foist this war onto some gullible general (both Iraq and Afghanistan). It also seems he hasn't found someone gullible enough to take this position.

Reports are that three multi-starred retired generals have rejected the offer. Highly unlikely the Collin Powell will be offered it since he would have us withdraw.

Anyone here willing to take it?
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.

Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com

P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject:

Here's a separate issue, but it's pretty funny. Looks like Wolfowitz is in trouble:

http://www.playfuls.com/news_09_5694-ROUNDUP-Wolfowitz-sorry-For-Role-In-Womans-Promotion.html

It's just ridiculous that after all of the evil things that this man has done, it'll be something like this that ends up taking him down.

Still, it sounds like the whole story is fabricated. Can you imagine that there would be a woman out there sexually interested in that little evil twerp? It's just too fantastical to believe.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1506

Pondering · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1506

P1234567890 · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject:

How about troop casualty levels. Those stats are available. Surely we must be able to find out if they've decreased since the surge started...

And how about that Wolfowitz piece? It turns out that America went to war with Iraq just because the woman Wolfowitz was having an extramarital affair with (which was bad when Clinton did it, but seems to be fine when Wolfy does it) wanted him to. I think that's cool.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.