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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: Confusion over Baptism/difficult questions |
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I have a few questions I have not seen addressed regarding Baptism:
1) If a person was baptized in a Christian religion but leaves that church (for personal reasons) but still believes in and loves God and Jesus, is that person still saved if they are living according to Gods laws?
2) Taking it a step further, if the person later joins another Christian Church, is it necessary to get baptized again? Isn't baptism in the Lord and not of or in the church?
3) Is it customary in many churches for a 10% tithe to be tied to baptism? Can a person tithe less and still be baptized in the eyes of the Lord? (My family believes in giving to support the church but often my family struggles financially. We give what we know we can afford).
4) Why are there so many options on the tithe envelope? (examples: tithe and offerings, General Fund, Special Funds, Childrens Church, Missions etc...). Shouldn't there just be one fund, (tithe) that is distributed to cover other needs? Are these other 'options' scripturally supported?
Help! I am really looking for an answer to these questions.
Much Luv  [/b] |
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daviddale3
Kitten
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 146
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Confusion over Baptism/difficult questions |
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| luvnlife wrote: | I have a few questions I have not seen addressed regarding Baptism:
1) If a person was baptized in a Christian religion but leaves that church (for personal reasons) but still believes in and loves God and Jesus, is that person still saved if they are living according to Gods laws?
2) Taking it a step further, if the person later joins another Christian Church, is it necessary to get baptized again? Isn't baptism in the Lord and not of or in the church?
3) Is it customary in many churches for a 10% tithe to be tied to baptism? Can a person tithe less and still be baptized in the eyes of the Lord? (My family believes in giving to support the church but often my family struggles financially. We give what we know we can afford).
4) Why are there so many options on the tithe envelope? (examples: tithe and offerings, General Fund, Special Funds, Childrens Church, Missions etc...). Shouldn't there just be one fund, (tithe) that is distributed to cover other needs? Are these other 'options' scripturally supported?
Help! I am really looking for an answer to these questions.
Much Luv [/b] |
To address your first question.
First off, I believe that your wording is mistaken. The Christian religion is not a religion, but it is the religion. There is only one in the sight of God, and that is the one that we find in the NT.
Secondly, I feel that you are confused about the Church. The Church is a God ordained institution (Acts 20:28). Christ purchased it with his blood and there is only one in number (Matt. 16:18, Eph. 4:4, Romans 12:4-5, Eph. 1:22-23, Col. 1:18). I believe that you are refering to the many man made institutions that encompass our world today (over 2,000 the last I checked). You can leave one of the man made institutions and go somewhere else or just not attend anywhere, but I do not believe that you can leave the Lord's church. When a person is saved the Lord adds them to his church (Acts 2:42). Once this happens, I do not find anywhere in the Scriptures that states we can leave it. We will always be a part of it. With that said, I do believe that a person can leave the congregation in which they have placed membership. If they decide to leave for personal reasons (moving, congregation not working as it should, etc...), they may place membership at a different congregation. These persons are still in a saved state. If they decide to leave and re-enter the world, then they are no longer in a saved state but they are still a member of the Lord's church. All one has to do is pray to the Father (I John 1:7-10).
Question #2,
Again, you can join a man made church, but you cannot join the Lord's church (Acts 2:42). Obiedence to the Gospel (belief Heb. 11:6, repentence Luke 13:3&5, confession Matt. 10:32-33, baptism Acts 2:28,Acts 8:26-40) is what is required in order to be added. Once this is accomlished you cannot join another, for there is no other to join.
Question # 3,
I have yet to understand this one, can you enlighten me.
Question #4,
I would say that it would be a matter of expediency. As long as the work of the church can continue as it should. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks David. I will try to clarify question #3. I love the church that I am currently attending. I have learned a lot and there is a really special spiritual feeling there and really good people there.
Tithe is "stressed" so much though that I feel "stressed" out because my family is not able to give the 10% tithe. We give what we can afford. I get the feeling that the 10% is almost a condition/requirement of getting baptized. I wonder if we are the only family that feels this way.
Thanks for your previous response,
Much Luv:) |
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Negative Overload
Big Goldfish
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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I thought you just needed to give the first portion of your income to God's house, not a particular percentage of it. Maybe churches give out 10% because it's easier to figure out that "first portion," or to make sure people don't toss in a quarter and think, "First portion was that quarter! Now I can pay off my SUV with the rest!"
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Whose house?....God's house! |
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daviddale3
Kitten
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 146
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | Thanks David. I will try to clarify question #3. I love the church that I am currently attending. I have learned a lot and there is a really special spiritual feeling there and really good people there.
Tithe is "stressed" so much though that I feel "stressed" out because my family is not able to give the 10% tithe. We give what we can afford. I get the feeling that the 10% is almost a condition/requirement of getting baptized. I wonder if we are the only family that feels this way.
Thanks for your previous response,
Much Luv:) |
The 10% rule that some use is from the Mosaic law. Tithe means to give a tenth. This was done away with when Jesus died upon the cross. To require this today is to go against the authority of Christ and his law. We are now to give as God has prospered us (I Cor. 16:1-2), and as every man has purposed in his heart (II Cor. 9:6-7).
When you give what you can afford, then you are doing the will of the Lord. There should be no shame in it for you. The thing to remember here is we must always put God first in every asspect of our lives (Matt. 6:33). If you decide to go out and purchase a new boat, and in doing so you find you are no longer able to give as you should since you now have an additional bill to contend with, would you be giving as is required? I choose the boat since it is strictly a recreational item and not something that is required for you to live. Yet, if you find that your old beat up car can no longer get you from point A to point B, and you purchase a new one, then you are not prospering as you were previously. Your contribution may go down. As soon as you are able to contribute more, then you would increase it as you are prospering.
If the place you attend is stressing this 10% thing to the point that it is making you feel this way, that could be a very big red flag. I do not find where this action would be condoned by Scripture. I would first study for myself the subject with an open heart and mind and find out the truth. Then I would confront those who are in charge. If they will not go with Scripture, then I would be forced to find another place to attend. Just because the sign outside says 'Church' does not make it the Lord's Church. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I love the church that I am currently attending. I have learned a lot and there is a really special spiritual feeling there and really good people there.
Tithe is "stressed" so much though that I feel "stressed" out because my family is not able to give the 10% tithe. We give what we can afford. I get the feeling that the 10% is almost a condition/requirement of getting baptized. I wonder if we are the only family that feels this way. |
Hi,
I made a transitioned a traditional baptist church where I leisurely tithed when it was conveient for me, to a non denomination church where tithing is exceedingly incouraged. My pastor teaches that the 10% of your income belongs to God, then you have an offering that is at your discretion, but you should not give sparingly.
Tithing is not a requirement to be baptized, or become a christian, you must beleive, repent, and become born again through Christ. To tithe is to aknowledge God, becouse everything belongs to him, just as he blesses us with children we dedicate them to him, becouse they belong to him.
I know we all get stressed about things, but we have no worries becouse God will provide for us, as Im sure you know. He wants to increase your income, and stop the devourer from decreasing your income. Now God promises certain things when we do tithe look at the passages below in Malachi it refers to the coming John the Baptist and Jesus's coming and purifing the Levites and God permitting us to test him in the area of tithing and offering.
Malachi 3:1-12
"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.
Robbing God
6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.
God tells himself, tells us the signifigance of testing him in the area of tithing ( tithe deriving from Old English teogoþa "tenth"). Some forfet the teachings of the old testiment, which is absurd, but Jesus himself stated:
Matt. 5:17,18
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Luke6:3L8
38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
The Widow's Offering
Mark 12:41-44
41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[j]worth only a fraction of a penny.[k]
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks David, saibe and Negative for your responses.
I wonder what kind of debts people had to pay back in the day when tithe was required.
My family drives approximately 1,500 miles every month (work and school). We pay our mortgage, a car payment, school expenses, clothing, vehicle expenses, Doctors bills, medications, food and daycare (which is $24 a day) etc... I am sure there are a lot of people who can identify with this. Our income is not bad but it goes very quickly nonetheless. We also give a lot away and support several charities each year. I am not complaining mind you. We do not go hungry and we are able to give regularly to the church as well as local and national charities.
I very much appreciate your input.
Much Luv |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi Luvnlife,
You are attending a physical church; a church that has departed from the faith. I know that this is hard to believe, especially because you are attending and hearing constantly the lie.
We were baptised into Christ's death and raised together with Christ in heavenly places, it was all a spiritual act of God. The church you are attending is only helping Satan. Preposterous? You need to give up that church and read the Word. I recommend the KJV and a Strong's Concordance.
In Christ, Judy |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the tithe worked like so...
everyone brings together a part of their increase to the church. At that point the church gives to those who are in need. Whatever is left after that goes in the treasury to help those who need special care, or for keeping the building in good shape....
In the early church it says,
Act 4:32 ¶ And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, [and] of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.
So when the Pastor asks you for ten percent, ask Him/Her how much they have distributed out to the congregation to make sure that everyone has everything equal and that there is none lacking in anything.
If you are down on your luck, you should be able to go to the pastor and recieve a distribution to put you back on your feet.
So instead of a banking system you have a church that recieves and distributes incomes to everyone so no one goes without...food/clothing/housing...etc..
That's how I understand the verses above...
and they all had things in common and none had lack of anything.
Now I have a question...
After the people sold their homes and lands..where did they live? Who did they sell their property to?
peace
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1026
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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This question comes up a lot, and I give the same response: You couldn't tithe if you tried. It is not possible to tithe in the Biblical sense, since there is not an active Levitical priesthood, nor a temple in Jerusalem, and you are most likely not a member of one of the tribes.
If your pastor insists on a tithe, simply ask him if he is a Levite, and Biblically qualified to receive one. The tithing business is a con game that is popular today in churches, and the original apostles, and Jesus himself never asked for one. TV preachers are notorious tithe beggers.
Remember Judas had a little bag for the donations that were received, and they still supported themselves as fishermen.
The absolute truth is that any preacher that insists on a tithe is a bald-faced liar, and should be made aware of the fact. Some groups, not only insist on a tithe, but a second, and third tithe as well.
Don't let anyone try to shame you into tithing. Give as you see fit out of your increase, and nothing more. Giving is a private decision for you to make, and no one else's business, including the church officials. Grrrr!!!
Personally, I wouldn't give a dime to any church I know of. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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nana wrote:
| Quote: | | You need to give up that church and read the Word. I recommend the KJV and a Strong's Concordance. |
I actually do both. My daughter and I discuss the bible and biblical principles outside the church. I am actually in the middle of reading the New Testament right now on my own. I have thus far read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans and Revelations. I am currently reading 1 Corinthians. I do feel the church does a lot of good. They have helped people in the community and in other countries. I discuss with my daughter what she learned in church and pass on to her what I learned. What she learns at church strengthens and verifies what she is taught at home.
lone said:
| Quote: | | everyone brings together a part of their increase to the church. At that point the church gives to those who are in need. Whatever is left after that goes in the treasury to help those who need special care, or for keeping the building in good shape.... |
That sounds ideal but I don’t know if that is the way it happens in most churches. I am sure a good part of tithe goes toward paying church personnel. I am not saying they are paid a great deal. I know our Pastor is not a wealthy man and his wife works to help support the family too.
I am honestly not sure what else tithe is for as we also have a building fund, a missions fund, childrens church fund, a special fund and one or two more that I cannot think of at the moment.
lone said:
| Quote: | Now I have a question...
After the people sold their homes and lands..where did they live? Who did they sell their property to? |
You have raised a couple of thought-provoking questions, lone!
Pete said:
| Quote: | Don't let anyone try to shame you into tithing. Give as you see fit out of your increase, and nothing more. Giving is a private decision for you to make, and no one else's business, including the church officials. Grrrr!!!
Personally, I wouldn't give a dime to any church I know of. |
Thanks, Pete. I don’t mind giving when I know that the funds are being put to an honorable use and helping others or bringing God in to others lives but I think giving is something that should not be dictated and expected. Whatever a person chooses to give should be guided by their heart (not their church or their Pastor/Minister/Elder/Rabbi etc…).
Much Luv |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Confusion over Baptism/difficult questions |
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| luvnlife wrote: | I have a few questions I have not seen addressed regarding Baptism:
1) If a person was baptized in a Christian religion but leaves that church (for personal reasons) but still believes in and loves God and Jesus, is that person still saved if they are living according to Gods laws? |
There are many issues that need to be addressed here, and some have already been. First of all, the word "church" itself is “ekklesia” comes from two Greek words: "Ek" means "out" and "Kaleo" means "call", and this is the verb form. When we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means "called out ones." It is not an institution or building that you join, it is a supernatural calling by your Creator to come out of the world and begin the process of becoming one with Him. Either you have had this experience or you haven't, and based on your statements I would suspect you have not.
Secondly, the word "baptism" is a transliteration of the Greek word "baptizo" or "baptisma." In Greek the term simply means "to be immersed into something else." The fact that it is untranslated in virtually every English Bible has caused much confusion. When scripture speaks of being "baptized into Christ" it literally means being immersed into Him and has nothing to do with water. When it tells us to "baptize people in the name of the Father, Son, and/or Holy Spirit, it means to immerse people into who they are and what they represent, or in other words to preach the Gospel. Again it has nothing to do with water.
John the baptist came to immerse people in water as a sign of the "baptism" to come, which was with the Holy Spirit. Early in the book of Acts the apostles also water baptized as a representation of the true immersion which was into Christ, through the immersion of his Spirit. This never saved anyone however, and was only designed to represent a greater truth. If your faith is in the symbol rather than what it is symbolizing then again you really missed the entire point of the Gospel.
We are saved by being immersed into Christ Jesus through the washing and regeneration of His Spirit. That is the only "baptism" that truly matters. The water ceremony was only intended to be a symbolic representation of the true "baptism" of Christ through His Spirit.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Sealed said:
| Quote: | | It is not an institution or building that you join, it is a supernatural calling by your Creator to come out of the world and begin the process of becoming one with Him. Either you have had this experience or you haven't, and based on your statements I would suspect you have not. |
That's the problem... I have had and am having this experience. Everything I do, I think about God and consider what God would want me to do or what Jesus would do. However, I am attending a church that preaches baptism but to me baptism is in the Lord and not the church. I was baptized. I have since as far back as I can remember, believed in God even before my mother ever took me to a church. As a little child, before I ever knew that people congregated together to worship, I made up songs and lyrics to God. I have always known that he exists and I try to live by Gods and Jesus' teachings and I do have hope.
I had been attending the church I referenced for about 10 years. For valid but very personal reasons, my family left the church. My mother returned several years later. I did teach my oldest child about God from the time she was very young but we did not attend any church regularly except the Baptists for a while. We did go to many different churches in the area for brief periods of time.
About 2-1/2 years ago, my youngest daughter & I started attending the church we currently go to. I go there for two reasons: 1) To praise God. 2) To learn more. I read the bible on my own at least 5 times a week. I know God is not an 'institution' but, along with other things, I am going to this 'institution' to learn more about God. It's the 'supernatural calling' that you are talking about that is causing me to absorb myself in learning about God by any means I can. I read the bible at work. I read the bible at home and at church. I pray a lot. I work on forgiving and being non-judgemental. I look for ways to help others. I think about and try to incorporate in to my life a deeper compassion for others. I take it seriously. I want to know what statements I have made that make you believe otherwise.
Much Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
I'm glad to hear that you understand that "church" is not a place or institution but a calling from Christ Himself. I still don't think you understand what the word "baptism" really means however. The institution you are attending is preaching water baptism for salvation which is a total misunderstanding of the gospel. True christians should be preaching "baptism" but the immersion that we preach is into Christ Jesus, through the immersion with His Spirit and Word. If you are learning about the bible from an institution that teaches a false Gospel, then what are you really gaining?
It is good that you are studying the Bible yourself rather than trusting the institution to indoctrinate you, but you have to be careful allowing someone to tell you what the Bible says, because often false precepts are introduced which cause you to filter all of scripture through the misconceptions which have been programmed into you by these false teachers. This is often the greatest hindrance to understanding the Bible, since these false precepts become ingrained into your mind and are difficult to overcome once you have accepted them. The redefinition of "church" and "baptism" are two perfect examples of this, and have led countless millions to accept false gospel's as a result.
The true "ekklesia" or "church" of Christ consists of those whom He has called out of the world to a new life in Him. Many are called, but few are chosen.(Mat 22:14) Those who are called must then go through a process of sanctification by the baptism with His Spirit and Word. Those who complete this process are born again children of God and heirs to His Kingdom. This is the true Gospel of the Bible, but most of the institutions which claim to be "churches" redefine the terms to bring the adherents under the bondage of a religion rather than the freedom which we receive from Christ by being baptized into Him.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1271
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Sealed said:
| Quote: | | Those who are called must then go through a process of sanctification by the baptism with His Spirit and Word. Those who complete this process are born again children of God and heirs to His Kingdom. This is the true Gospel of the Bible, but most of the institutions which claim to be "churches" redefine the terms to bring the adherents under the bondage of a religion rather than the freedom which we receive from Christ by being baptized into Him. |
Interestingly enough, I happened to be on the road for quite a while today and so got the opportunity to read a few chapters of 1 Cor. I read, in particular, 1 Cor 12:12,13 which says: 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. and when I read this, I thought about what you said in your last post. Then I read your most recent post and it states, essentially, what I just read.
I don't think there is anything wrong with getting baptized with water so long as you understand the sacredness of it. The church seems to feel that if you are not baptized by water, you are an eternal visitor. You cannot teach, preach or volunteer your time and services to the church. It is important to make sure that baptism is not something that is being done to gain acceptance or status in the church. Baptism should not be a showy display to the congregation, it should be a heartfelt commitment to God.
Baptism by water does not seal you, however, to God. I know several people who have been baptized several times in several different churches. Baptism is all about God, not the current church you may be attending. Baptism, most importantly is a spiritual commitment and life-changing journey.
This to me is a difficult subject as I have spent my life having water baptism pounded in to my head. Until I started reading the bible on my own, there were a lot of things I did not know. There were a lot of things I was not taught. And many many things that I am still learning so you will see me on this board probably quite a lot, sometimes with insights but more often with questions.
Thanks Sealed.
Much Luv :Bible: 
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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