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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | [P1234567890 said]If I wasn't already dedicated to worshiping Charles Darwin, I think that I would name Richard Dawkins as my God. 
He's so eloquent, genuine, and more conveint for my lifestlye. And he beleives in extra teristial beings  , An eloquent & intelectual fellow indeed!
He himself said that he or anyone else could disprove God. He admits to insulting God, he's so positve. He's great, he's the best thing sinse slice bread.
One thing I really like about him is that he's so eloquent. I watched his documentary a while ago. In it he goes and talks to Rev. Haggard. The contrast between them is just wonderful. It's transparently obvious which one is smarter and also which one is more honest
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[/quote]
Acts 17:17-18
8A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
But God has chosen the foolish things to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong." (1st Corinthians 1:27).
When you folks talk it realy shows your ignorance about the bible. It's obvious you, some of you dont know it, so how do you dismiss it?
| Quote: | | [apocatastasis]P1, I don't think it fair to say that the most famous creationists are criminals. Hypocrites? Maybe, maybe not. Intellectually dishonest? You bet! |
[/quote]
| Quote: | [P1234567890 said]Two names: Kent Hovind and Ted Haggard.
Or more succinctly, Dawkins has never been sent to jail for committing a felony, and (to my knowledge) Stenger has never been involved in a hypocritical scandal involving illegal drugs and a homosexual prostitute...
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[/quote]
You mean he hasnt gotten caught doing something you say is immoral? People look at the outside of a man, but God looks at the heart, he judges the motives of the heart.
You dont know one fourth of what this man does behind close doors. And this makes him creditable. Not a good judge of character.
Anyway it shows you dont understand why Jesus was born and died on the cross. He did this for our sins, our sins of past, our sins of the future, he knows everything we will do before we do it. Thats something you call GRACE.
Thats what I dont understand, how can you dismiss something without having a full understanding of it. I am listening and going to do research on this fella Dawkins, although I beleive in the true living God, who created this green earth, that you see when wake up. I still have aresponsiablity to soak up knowledge, you guys dont even do that. You are clueless to what the word of God says.
[ | Quote: | | p1234567890 said]Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that all creationists are criminals and hypocrites. I'm just saying that it seems that way. At the very least, I'd say that creationists have a serious PR problem... |
[/quote]
You have the PR problem, all have fallen short to what is acceptable to God. You and I commit sins on a daily basis, the difference between you and I when it comes to that is that, it is not aired on CNN.
Psalm 14:1
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
| Quote: | | [Admin said]He mentioned Dawkins in passing. He mentioned things he felt contemporary Christians should truly be concerned about, like slavery still existing in the world. He also mentioned many roots of current words and traditions that came from Pagan practices - this offended many in the congregation. I am guessing the name Joseph Campbell is not one that is familiar in these circles. |
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Can you elaborate and post the things concerning contemporary Christians, that Dawkins references, Id really like to see the things he brought up, becouse what i listened was just a what he called a irational I dont beleive in God becouse I cant see him. The things he says are contrary to what the bible say. The bible is a historical document, with history, where did this fellow get his doctorine of beleif from? I can only guess. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8332
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
He's so eloquent, genuine, and more conveint for my lifestlye. And he beleives in extra teristial beings , An eloquent & intelectual fellow indeed!
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I encourage you to pay more attention to him; perhaps some of his eloquence will rub off...
As for extra terrestrials, all reasonable people who know anything about the scale of the universe think that there probably are aliens *somewhere* out there.
| saibe wrote: |
He himself said that he or anyone else could disprove God.
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Remember what we were saying about eloquence? I'm pretty sure that this is not what you meant to say.
| saibe wrote: |
When you folks talk it realy shows your ignorance about the bible. It's obvious you, some of you dont know it, so how do you dismiss it?
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For a number of reasons. For one, it is internally inconsistent. It contains a huge number of contradictions.
Secondly, it describes events which couldn't possibly be true. Examples: Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus returning from the dead, Mary giving a virgin birth... All of which are literally impossible.
Another reason: it's obvious that the Bible was written by a bunch of people who knew next to nothing about science and the real universe. If it was inspired by a God, then then that God really didn't know very much. A much more reasonable explanation is that it was written by very real, very flawed people who were very ignorant by our standards.
That being said, it's not like the whole Bible is worthless. There are plenty of good teachings in it. But of course there are plenty of bad ones as well.
| saibe wrote: |
You dont know one fourth of what this man does behind close doors. And this makes him creditable. Not a good judge of character.
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What does his credit rating have to do with any of this? The preferred nomenclature in our vernacular is 'credible'. You may think that Dawkins is an evil guy, but there really is something to be admired about his eloquence...
| saibe wrote: |
I still have aresponsiablity to soak up knowledge,
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It is my experience that fundamentalist Christians try very hard to *reject* certain knowledge. For example, how do you feel about evolution?
| saibe wrote: |
you guys dont even do that. You are clueless to what the word of God says.
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I don't soak up knowledge? I'm 28 years old and I've been in school for the last 23 years...
| saibe wrote: |
Psalm 14:1
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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Ah yes, another false statement from the Bible. Are you saying that I am a bad, evil person?
| saibe wrote: |
Can you elaborate and post the things concerning contemporary Christians, that Dawkins references,
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Dawkins says a lot of good stuff. Another interesting argument that he makes is that indoctrinating children into religion is a form of child abuse, and he makes very good points. It has even infiltrated our language. For example, we have no qualms about labeling a child as 'a Muslim child' or 'a Christian child', but this is ridiculous. Children are far too young to have formed rational, coherent opinions on important matters. Would we label the child by their parents' political beliefs? For example, does it make sense to point at a 5-year-old, and say, "There's a socialist child.", or "There's a Republican child."???
| saibe wrote: |
Id really like to see the things he brought up, becouse what i listened was just a what he called a irational
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I don't think you are in any position to judge Dawkins as being irrational. I'd LOVE to see you try to formulate a *coherent* argument explaining why he is irrational.
| saibe wrote: |
I dont beleive in God becouse I cant see him.
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Way to go. In one simple sentence, you have not only misrepresented Dawkins' beliefs, but you have also misrepresented your own. False witness is a deadly sin.
| saibe wrote: |
The things he says are contrary to what the bible say. The bible is a historical document, with history, where did this fellow get his doctorine of beleif from? I can only guess. |
From logic and science, which are the *only* sound mechanisms known to man for seeking out truth. Faith is an extremely flawed way of trying to find truth.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1817
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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It takes me a while to mull things over. Dawkins will take me a while to digest. I'll post when I have more concrete things to say.
I love the discussions here. Thank you to those that have requested I be more concrete in posting specific issues. I agree with you.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8332
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | It takes me a while to mull things over. Dawkins will take me a while to digest. I'll post when I have more concrete things to say.
I love the discussions here. Thank you to those that have requested I be more concrete in posting specific issues. I agree with you. |
Have you read his God Delusion book? I've put an order on it at the library!
I can give you the documentary which goes along with the book if you want. (Or just type 'Richard Dawkins' into any bittorrent search engine and you'll get a bunch of hits.)
I also plan on going to hear Victor Stenger talk when he comes to Toronto.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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The sum of Dawkin's argument.
I dont beleive in God becouse I cant see him, and you shouldn't beleive in God, becouse he is invisiable to you as well.
People who objected to Dawkins's argument, were no more enlightend then if a 6 yr. old. could have told them God doesnt exist. He didt point out anything astonishing, anything contrary to the beleif that God does exist.
The way he answered to those who object to his opinions. One fellow asked where does morality come from.
His response sumed up:
It may come from darwinism, but I am sure it doesnt come from the bible. Thats a joke!
| Quote: | | It is my experience that fundamentalist Christians try very hard to *reject* certain knowledge. For example, how do you feel about evolution? |
I assume you are associated with evolution very well from your question. As evolution is said by some to relate to our existence, my opinion is that it is hog wash its not even a theory, just a hypothesis, it just hasn't been proven plain and simple.
| Quote: | | I don't soak up knowledge? I'm 28 years old and I've been in school for the last 23 years... |
I was talking about soaking up the knowledge of the bible. It's evident, by your comments that you dont understand the bible, you dont understand grace and other points of the word of God.
I am 27, and currently in school as well, Ive taken classes like anthropology, philosophy etc. In studying I've come across beleifs that are contrary to mine, but I still take it into consideration,and soak up their beleifs althought I dont agree.
But it seems from your comments, you are not educated in the word of God, so I wanted to know, how can you insult God, and christianity, if you have not
sincerely, learned the scripture and it's meanings?
If I say I hate dark choclolate hershey bars and I dont know why they made it, it was worthless for them to make it. They should have just kept the regular dutch chocolate and distribute only those. Hopefully this means that I have tasted it, maybe looked at the ingredients, looked at the candy bar itself, and concluded that I did not like it.
| Quote: | | indoctrinating children into religion is a form of child abuse, |
Thats absurd
So why is evolution taught in school? Is that a form of child abuse?
Im a mother of 3, My husband and I struggle with limiting our kids, becouse I want them to have their own, opinions, way of life, creativity etc. But I know the struggles I went through as a teen, and young adult with out God and the knowledge of his word.
So I know it is important to instill in them beleifs that will help them do what is right. All parents want the best for their kids, so I dont think he should judge how or what parents teach their kids. Its my choice as a parent what i deem appropriate. He shouldn't judge what parents teach their kids, becouse most children turn out to be productive citizens, whether they are christian or non christian. But concerning the bible, God says all are sinful, unless you have Jesus, that is why I teach my children to depend on God, not man.
| Quote: | | What does his credit rating have to do with any of this? The preferred nomenclature in our vernacular is 'credible'. You may think that Dawkins is an evil guy, but there really is something to be admired about his eloquence... |
This is not an English paper or a thesis, your not my judge so you shouldn't be critique my words or grammer. Did you read my disclaimer, maybe you
should read it again. You seem to not be a fan of preffered nomenclature when it came to lesbianism.
| Quote: | For a number of reasons. For one, it is internally inconsistent. It contains a huge number of contradictions.
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Give me some examples of the inconsistentcy and contradictions.
| Quote: | | Secondly, it describes events which couldn't possibly be true. Examples: Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus returning from the dead, Mary giving a virgin birth... All of which are literally impossible. |
As an unbeleiver those things are impossiable for you to fathom. What is literally impossiable for man is possiable with God. You equate God on a human level, he is alpaha & omega, he is the inventer of this earth, and everything in it. He is the first scientist, he's not powerless, you have to view him in the way he is. He is mighty, his thoughts are not our thoughts. You think a virgin birth is impossible, but with God it's not.
Luke 18:27
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God.
| Quote: | | Another reason: it's obvious that the Bible was written by a bunch of people who knew next to nothing about science and the real universe. If it was inspired by a God, then then that God really didn't know very much. A much more reasonable explanation is that it was written by very real, very flawed people who were very ignorant by our standards. |
I dont know what to say to you on this one, I'll pray for you. You are speaking in general, give me some examples on this thought that you expressed. How do you conclude that God doesnt know much? You should explain yourself on this one.
| Quote: | | That being said, it's not like the whole Bible is worthless. There are plenty of good teachings in it. But of course there are plenty of bad ones as well. |
oh ok, not the whole bible, just some of it is worthless to you. The inspired word of God is worthless, now that is literally impossiable.I mean to say this, if it is bad it is bad, if it is good then it is truly good. Not both.
My point is Dawkins is unable to prove that God doesnt exist and that is true of a lot of atheist. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
oh ok, not the whole bible, just some of it is worthless to you. The inspired word of God is worthless, now that is literally impossiable.I mean to say this, if it is bad it is bad, if it is good then it is truly good. Not both. |
Hi saibe,
Did you ever otice that the bible includes in it the ethical treatment of slaves? I mean, it doesn't condemn slavery - it tells you how to treat your slaves as if it were perfectly alright to be having them in the first place.
Here, by the way, is how you are supposed to treat your slaves:
| Exodus 21: 2-6, 20-21 wrote: | If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money. |
Does this qualify as a good part of the bible to you? Is slavery okay, in your opinion?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8332
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: | The sum of Dawkin's argument.
I dont beleive in God becouse I cant see him, and you shouldn't beleive in God, becouse he is invisiable to you as well.
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Dawkins never says anything of the sort. Apparently you haven't delved very deeply into his ideas at all...
| saibe wrote: |
People who objected to Dawkins's argument, were no more enlightend then if a 6 yr. old. could have told them God doesnt exist. He didt point out anything astonishing, anything contrary to the beleif that God does exist.
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It sounds like you don't know Dawkins' arguments at all...
| saibe wrote: |
I assume you are associated with evolution very well from your question. As evolution is said by some to relate to our existence, my opinion is that it is hog wash its not even a theory, just a hypothesis, it just hasn't been proven plain and simple.
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Unfortunately for you, the VAST majority of the EXPERTS on the subject of where all the animals came from disagree with you.
Evolution is a fact. That you evolved from lower primates is completely indisputable.
| saibe wrote: |
I was talking about soaking up the knowledge of the bible. It's evident, by your comments that you dont understand the bible, you dont understand grace and other points of the word of God.
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I'm the first to admit that the Bible has a lot of good stuff in it. For example, I'm a big fan of Jesus' teachings. But it's also got a lot of really awful and primitive stuff in it that you'd expect from the primitive people who wrote it...
But apart from that, it's apparent from your comments that you don't understand Dawkins' ideas... So isn't it bad of you to point the finger at me and say that I don't understand the Bible? Because from where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're guilty of the same crime: I make crazy claims about something that I don't understand anything about, and you make crazy claims about something that you don't understand anything about...
According to the Bible's definition of hypocrite, that makes you a hypocrite. (Did I just show that I know a little bit about the Bible?) Don't take this comment too seriously; I'm just having some fun with you. I don't mean any of this in a bad way.
| saibe wrote: |
I am 27, and currently in school as well, Ive taken classes like anthropology, philosophy etc. In studying I've come across beleifs that are contrary to mine, but I still take it into consideration,and soak up their beleifs althought I dont agree.
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Like evolution, for example? I admit that I was pretty impressed by how open-minded you sounded about it a few paragraphs ago...
| saibe wrote: |
But it seems from your comments, you are not educated in the word of God, so I wanted to know, how can you insult God, and christianity, if you have not
sincerely, learned the scripture and it's meanings?
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Insult? I'm a huge fan of Jesus' teachings. I wish that everyone on Earth followed them. If they did, then the world would be a MUCH better place. I have nothing but the utmost respect for many of his ideas.
| saibe wrote: |
| Quote: | | indoctrinating children into religion is a form of child abuse, |
Thats absurd
So why is evolution taught in school? Is that a form of child abuse?
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Nope, that's part of a proper science education.
| saibe wrote: |
This is not an English paper or a thesis, your not my judge so you shouldn't be critique my words or grammer. Did you read my disclaimer, maybe you
should read it again. You seem to not be a fan of preffered nomenclature when it came to lesbianism.
|
I'm not trying to patronize you. I'm just suggesting that to become a better writer, one must practice writing. Even if you're just writing on-line here, it's a great time to practice. You said that you're in school. Good writing skills are essential in that arena.
| saibe wrote: |
| Quote: | For a number of reasons. For one, it is internally inconsistent. It contains a huge number of contradictions.
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Give me some examples of the inconsistentcy and contradictions.
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There are plenty of them. Here are a few to get you started:
1. Right in the beginning of Genesis, it says that God created the Earth before the stars, but we know for a fact that there are gazillions of stars out there which are considerably older than the Earth.
2. God is omniscient, but humans also have free will. This is contradictory; it is impossible for both of these things to be true.
3. God is all-loving and kind, but then He does all sorts of incredibly evil things like telling Abraham to sacrifice his own son. Do you have any idea what kind of counseling Isaac would have needed after that?!? And that's just a mild example; there are plenty of times when the supposedly all-loving God destroys entire cities and countries including innocent women and children, etc.
I'd call that an extreme contradiction in character... On one hand he's supposed to be kind and all-loving, and on the other hand he's a meglomaniacal psycho.
There are plenty of other examples. Ana's post above gives an EXCELLENT one.
| saibe wrote: |
As an unbeleiver those things are impossiable for you to fathom. What is literally impossiable for man is possiable with God. You equate God on a human level, he is alpaha & omega, he is the inventer of this earth, and everything in it. He is the first scientist, he's not powerless, you have to view him in the way he is. He is mighty, his thoughts are not our thoughts. You think a virgin birth is impossible, but with God it's not.
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You don't have a shred of evidence that these COMPLETELY FANTASTICAL events took place, and yet you have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that they in fact happened just as described in the Bible. This shows a lack of critical thinking on your part.
When someone tells you something that is so far-fetched that it seems ridiculous, and they don't even have any evidence to back up their claims, the reasonable thing to do is to be skeptical. And the level of skepticism should be directly proportional to how outlandish the unsubstantiated claims are.
| saibe wrote: |
I dont know what to say to you on this one, I'll pray for you. You are speaking in general, give me some examples on this thought that you expressed. How do you conclude that God doesnt know much? You should explain yourself on this one.
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I'm not really saying that God doesn't know much; I'm saying that the people who made Him up and wrote the Bible didn't know very much. Do I really have to defend this claim? It was written by people from a totally primitive culture thousands of years ago... Their understanding of the universe was completely rudimentary by our standards. For example, they hadn't even discovered algebra yet! They had no concept of democracy. Slavery was rampant, etc., etc.
| saibe wrote: |
oh ok, not the whole bible, just some of it is worthless to you. The inspired word of God is worthless, now that is literally impossiable.I mean to say this, if it is bad it is bad, if it is good then it is truly good. Not both.
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This is the Atheist thread. The Bible is not the inspired word of God. God did not make man; man made God.
| saibe wrote: |
My point is Dawkins is unable to prove that God doesnt exist and that is true of a lot of atheist. |
And Dawkins is the first to admit as much...
Atheism isn't about proving that God doesn't exist. It's about which arguments are the most reasonable.
Is it more reasonable to be skeptical in the face of fantastical claims that have no evidence backing them up, or is it more reasonable to accept them on faith?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | saibe wrote: |
oh ok, not the whole bible, just some of it is worthless to you. The inspired word of God is worthless, now that is literally impossiable.I mean to say this, if it is bad it is bad, if it is good then it is truly good. Not both. |
Hi saibe,
Did you ever otice that the bible includes in it the ethical treatment of slaves? I mean, it doesn't condemn slavery - it tells you how to treat your slaves as if it were perfectly alright to be having them in the first place.
Here, by the way, is how you are supposed to treat your slaves:
| Exodus 21: 2-6, 20-21 wrote: | If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money. |
Does this qualify as a good part of the bible to you? Is slavery okay, in your opinion? |
Hi Ana, how are you?
May I ask you some questions? Is this world perfect? Is this world fair? I know these are stupid cliches, and you deserve a better answer from me. But stay with me.
Now in the begining of the world Genisis 1. God put Adam and Eve over all of the world plants animals etc, so how did humans become inslaved? Adam & Eve disobey God, and become subject to the laws of God, Cain kills Abel, God slowly becomes angry with people, to the point of pain in his heart. So he decided to wipe out man, all exept Noah. Noah his family and animals survive with the ark ....
Genisis 9:24
The Sons of Noah
18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.
24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."
26 He also said,
"Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem. [b]
27 May God extend the territory of Japheth [c] ;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be his [d] slave."
So Canaan and all his descendents (the canaanites) became slaves, by the curse of his father Noah. Unfortunately this became the norm, through out the bible and through out the world, on to the slave trade of the 1600s.
Now, the lines between slave, and servant crossed during the bible days. Just like in our US history, and across the world. You may have been considered lucky, if you were not sold to a cruel and viscous slave owner, which is just horriable to think about. Some slave owners, were owners of themselves. Some Africans owned Africans.
1 Abraham was now old and well advanced in years, and the LORD had blessed him in every way. 2 He said to the chief [a] servant in his household, the one in charge of all that he had, "Put your hand under my thigh. 3 I want you to swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living,.
In the scripture you qouted from Lev. Its telling of how to treat a servant or slave.
| Quote: | Does this qualify as a good part of the bible to you? Is slavery okay, in your opinion?
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The bible, which is the word of God, is good. All of the bible is good. So, to answer your question no, slavery is not ok.
Hebrews 4:12
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
If you read these verses, it's not what God wanted for anyone on earth.Out of sin slavery derived.I dont know about you but when I was a lil girl I hated being punished by mother. Even though I know what I did was wrong I hated it. So Canaan was punished by his father and God. Noah cursed Hem the father of Canaan and thier descendents to live the life of slavery unto his brothers, and their descendents. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Alright, let's take it from the top:
You asked if the world was fair. Noah cursed, not the perpetrator, but the perpetrator's son and offspring yet to come. That is not fair, so I can conclude that no, the world is not fair, even in the bible. However, Noah was saved because:
| Gen 6:9 wrote: | | These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God. |
Noah condemned his grandson and all his grandson's offspring to slavery (he invented it perhaps?), and this is what we get from the one man on the planet God felt was worth saving (who we've seen already described as being just) from his big flood.
However, God is supposed to be just. Why would he create an unfair world? That wouldn't be fair. The only way out of this little contradiction is to say that the world is fair, and that since Noah, a just man, condemned his grandson (and his entire family) to slavery, that slavery too must be fair, or just.
| saibe wrote: | | The bible, which is the word of God, is good. All of the bible is good. So, to answer your question no, slavery is not ok. |
Well, for one thing, my argument above disagrees with you, and for another, your conclusion does not follow from the sentence before it.
| saibe wrote: | | In the scripture you qouted from Lev. Its telling of how to treat a servant or slave. |
For the record, I actually quoted Exodus, which is interesting since Exodus features a large story about a bunch of slaves escaping (from the pharaoh? go Moses?), indicating that sometimes slavery is not okay. I don't recall reading anywhere whether or not the pharaoh was following the rules laid out in the part I quoted. Of course, those rules were handed down after the slaves had escaped with Moses, so it is extremely unlikely that the pharaoh knew those rules beforehand.
So do you still think slavery is not okay, as you asserted before? I'd agree with you; I do not think slavery is okay, but then, the bible is not my moral compass. I do not think that the bible is wholly good. Like P, I think there are some good bits, but I also think there are some repugnant bits.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | saibe wrote: |
oh ok, not the whole bible, just some of it is worthless to you. The inspired word of God is worthless, now that is literally impossiable.I mean to say this, if it is bad it is bad, if it is good then it is truly good. Not both. |
Hi saibe,
Did you ever otice that the bible includes in it the ethical treatment of slaves? I mean, it doesn't condemn slavery - it tells you how to treat your slaves as if it were perfectly alright to be having them in the first place.
Here, by the way, is how you are supposed to treat your slaves:
| Exodus 21: 2-6, 20-21 wrote: | If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money. |
Does this qualify as a good part of the bible to you? Is slavery okay, in your opinion? |
Ana this is so cool!
If I were to copy all the verses from the NT that cover this very thing I'd have to cover a lot of territory..LOL
If thou buy a hebrew....We are baught with the price of Christ's blood. We are to work six days and rest on the seventh day. That is, keep the commandments and rest in him.
1Cr 7:21 Art thou called [being] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [it] rather.
| Quote: | | If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. |
1Cr 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Cr 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.
1Cr 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save [thy] husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save [thy] wife?
| Quote: | | Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. |
Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
HA!!
so cool!
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8332
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
In the scripture you qouted from Lev. Its telling of how to treat a servant or slave.
| Quote: | Does this qualify as a good part of the bible to you? Is slavery okay, in your opinion?
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The bible, which is the word of God, is good. All of the bible is good. So, to answer your question no, slavery is not ok. |
Then why doesn't the Bible say this? Why does it instead tell people how to treat their slaves???
The Bible does NOT condemn slavery. It implicitly condones it by telling people how to treat their slaves. If it said, "Slavery is wrong. Nobody should have slaves.", then that would be a proper moral statement. Instead, it basically tells people that it's fine to have slaves, but that there are 'guidelines' to owning them.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi P,
It's the same as telling employers how they should treat their employees.
It's the same as telling governments how they should treat their constituents.
There are always those put in authority over others. Some lead some follow.
These laws are there to teach the leaders how they aught to treat those who follow them.
As long as you live in Canada, you must obey by Canadian laws. Therefore in that sense Canada owns you. If you break their laws they have the authority to do to you whatever their laws allow them to do.
These are the laws set down in God's government and how He would have his kingdom ruled.
You are slaves to whom you obey. And to whomsoevers laws you abide under.
As long as you live in Canada you are a canadian slave. You pay taxes to the government, you live by their laws, you work in their workhouses and they pay you wages.
In the case of slaves who do not get paid "money", they are to be fed, clothed, housed, and treated as humans and not as animals.
If you don't like Canadian rules then you can leave Canada and live somewhere else. But if you choose to live there, then you must always abide by whatever rules they lay down.
All countries and governments have slaves as long as the people work for them, pay into them, and abide by their laws.
If we only serve ourselves and live on a remote island somewhere, then are we slaves to ourselves and our own rules.
I don't know if there is such a thing as absolute freedom. Except when your dead. 
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Lone, it's not the same thing, though.
Slavery means you don't get paid; slavery means you have no choice. Slavery means you are owned; you are property, and as such you can be bought or sold.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I think Lone makes some good points, and what she posted should be viewed in the manner in which she posted it.
In biblical times slavery was what is was, an institution practiced by all peoples of the world, in the realm of whether it is good or bad I cannot say why the scriptures don't take a more definitive stance, however, I understand that many parts of scripture address what is and how it should be. That they do not condemn an institution but instead dictate how that established institution should be handled is mysterious but also understandable.
I disagree though that scripture in any fashion condones slavery, and I think a view of Lone's post regarding the fact that one is a slave to something regardless is very telling of the broader spectrum of application than some choose to take on this subject.
An analogy: If you are in a store and you see a mother swat her child on the rear end and you do not confront her even though you personally do not approve, does this imply that you condone such action? I think the reasonable person would answer that it does not.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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I might also mention the purpose of scripture, and God's interaction with His chosen people was not to overthrow the world or society, but was to disciple His chosen in how to act in this world while following Him.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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