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theseldomscene
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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yes ma'am...i agree...it is the teachings we are to weigh and judge...not the people who have them...
maybe...but that depends too...  |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Re: God hates a physical Sabbath |
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Just to give you an example.
nana began this thread with a very strong statement.
"God hates a physical Sabbath"
and then went on to explain why she feels this way and gives scripture to back up this belief.
| nana wrote: | Greetings,
And is it any wonder why? I wonder if there was fighting over the Sabbath like there is now?
Isaiah 1:13-14, "Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."
Romans 7:14, "For we know that the law is spiritual:..."
At the coming of Christ we were to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.
The Sabbath is Spiritual and in us.
The spirit says that when you believe in God you have entered into the rest: everyday is the Sabbath.
Heb 4:3-4, "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, as I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world, For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."
It is scriptual for us to come together at any time one chooses, but as for the Sabbath, the Sabbath dwells in us.
In Christ, Judy |
My first reaction was defensive.
Because the scripture nana used to back up her assertion with, I found other things in it.
That it was our traditions, our holidays, that God hates. which is also a strong statement, but He made it, so I can't argue with him.
nana quoted:
Isaiah 1:13-14, "Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."
There is so much in this one verse, that to just take it as saying God hates a physical sabbath, misses so much information and we assume that this is what he means.
So I defended this with, it's about vain oblations and your (meaning mankinds) new moons and appointed feasts that his soul hates, that they are a trouble to him, and he is weary of bearing them.
Now the only thing we know about new moons, Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, appointed feasts, is what we have recorded in the bible. So all we can do is find out where these originated, how they were performed, and why does God say He hates them if they are in fact the very ones He told us to keep and do?
Something just isn't making sense to me here.
nana wrote:
| Quote: | | And is it any wonder why? I wonder if there was fighting over the Sabbath like there is now? |
I bet there was too. Because for some reason that's the one thing that keeps getting them into trouble. Everytime God gets angry with Israel it's because they either forget or profane His sabbaths. It seems as if that's always the first thing that leads them away.
So what is it about these things that God told man to keep that we just don't?
Could be like nana says...the spirit of them.
We do the works but we don't here the lessons given in them. So they become vain/useless in their worshipping something without the propper understanding of why they are doing what their doing.
They become robots to the system rather than having a deep rooted understanding of what it is their doing.
So they are no longer serving God and learning what it is He's teaching us, we are just performing duties without knowledge and with no faith or understanding in them.
We become robots to our own traditions. We do things because we're told to do them. A lot of times we aren't given a reason, we just do it because someone says so.
It's like working in a car factory. And you get your place in the assembly line and that's what you do for years. Hang a door on the left passenger side. That's it. That's all you do. (they have machines that do this now, but once upon a time people did.)
Now someone asks you, you work in the car shop why do they have this kind of shock obsorber and not another? DUH, I just hang the left passenger door...That's not my job.
I believe that God wants each of us to have a full knowledge of how everything functions. He wants us all to experience and understand everything that gives purpose and meaning to our lives. What He has planned for us, and how it takes shape and form. And when things do happen then we have an understanding of why things are happening and we don't have to fear them, but we can take measures to correct them before they get out of hand.
nana wrote:
God hates a physical sabbath.
And I've been thinking about that real deep.
If I consider the sabbath as a time we take to witness or experience what death itself holds in store for us. And if we can't find peace or rest in this day, then yes I would say that God hates a physical death in which one is unable to go to the grave in peace.
If I consider the sabbath as a time to witness or experience what death holds in store for us. And if we can find rest and peace in it, then no, I would say that God wants us to have a point in time when we can take a break from all the world around us and just enjoy this rest when we go to the grave.
I believe that death is temporary. But the time we spend there may depend on how we react to purposefully participating in it's shadow or example of it now.
If God hates all physical activity that has to do with shadows or examples or traditions in which we all keep to show things that have happened or are happening or are still yet to come, then we can't limit it to just this day or that day, or this celebration or that holiday. We have to take away every single one of them.
Why should God not hate the physical traditions we keep for sunday, just as much as the physical traditions we keep for saturday..or any day?
If God hates new moons, sabbaths, and assemblies, what makes any of them acceptable?
I don't believe God hates these things that we keep as traditions. I believe God hates the way we don't understand why He set them down, what purpose they show. We take them and use them for our own purposes. We put our own meanings to them. We celebrate them however we feel fit. And somehow I believe by doing this we miss the truth behind them all.
And because we miss the lesson, or we don't apply them with understanding, God becomes weary by watching us do things that are futile and vain. We vex ourselves by keeping things out of traditions but they have lost all meaning. So they become vain oblations, abominable incences..the aromas that rise to God stink because they have an unfamiliar spice to them. They are concocted out of our own apothecaries using whatever ingredients we choose to put in them, instead of those things God told us to put in which would give a sweet smelling odor. Knowledge, wisdom, understanding, faith.
If we keep traditions merely for the sake of doing the performances and rituals and we don't understand why it is we're doing what we're doing, and what purpose they serve, then any and all traditions, rites, holy day, holidays...they all become vain.
nana wrote:
| Quote: | The Sabbath is Spiritual and in us.
The spirit says that when you believe in God you have entered into the rest: everyday is the Sabbath. |
And I can understand this and agree that we are to live as though we are dead to the world. By not participating in those things which those that are living participate in. That we have reached a higher level of comprehension and we no longer need these things to teach us what we already have learned.
The problem is, not all have learned them. And that is why even though we are no longer part of the world, we still live in the world teaching those who have still yet to learn.
If everyone knew all the lessons and the insights and the truths behind all the traditions that we keep, then there would be no need to keep any of them any more because we would have attained and everyone would be fully knowlegable concerning them.
Why do we have christmas? Why do we have easter? Why do we have the feast of tabernacles? Why do we have the passover? Why do we have memorial day, columbus day, thanksgiving day?
If God Hates a physical Sabbath then God hates all these also. For the simple fact that they are all physical or we don't have a foundational knowledge of them or we have no faith in them.
So do we do away with all of them? Only some of them?
Or do we keep them all and try to understand the full meaning in each of them?
I believe their there for a reason and we haven't fully grasped the understanding of them yet. Otherwise there would be no knowledge of them if God wanted them to be gone. They are in my opinion still very much important for us to learn to contemplate, to understand, to find the meaning in each and every one.
There is spiritual meat inside every thing God has created. We just need to get inside and find out what it is.
And before we hastily throw things away without fully understanding if they still have meaning or not, we should study them to make sure we have picked the bones clean before putting them in the trash compactor.
this is my opinion. and how I feel about traditions, Holy days, Holidays, and all days put together.
God Bless
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Lone,
I appreciate your sincerity, but you have so much to say I don't know where to begin. Could you start off with a question that bothers you most and see if we can come up with the scriptures to back it up, but please, not to long, I get lost.
In Christ, Judy |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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hi nana,
you know your almost asking the impossible here LOL..
But I will try.
This verse here brings much contention to the table:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Now, I see this as working both ways.
Let no man therefore judge you...period.
whether it be in meat or in drink or in respect of a holyday, holiday...a new moon or of sabbath days...period.
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
What's the shadow? the judging or the things being judged?
If we broke it down one item at a time...
Let no man judge you in meat.
Let no man judge you in drink.
Let no man judge you in respect of a holyday....etc..
Do we judge eachother by what we eat?
or drink? or holydays? or traditions? or sabbaths?
I think the problem and the solution is in the very first five words.
Let no man therefore judge you.
There's lots of scripture to back this up.
Judge no lest ye be judged...
Judge nothing before the time....
In my honest opinion the shadow Paul is refering to is exactly what it is we're doing...judging.
I hope that wasn't too long nana... 
I know I get carried away.
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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RevJP
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Through all this rubbish about 'saturday sabbath' and the hellbound 'sunday keepers' two things have consistently been avoided by those of the legalistic persuasion:
1) Where in scripture is 'saturday' EVER mentioned?
2) What commandment dictates that one is supposed to gather and worship on any particular day?
I've seen the 4th commandment paraded around as a dictate to gather and worship but it doesn't say anything about gathering and worshipping. I see Levitical law paraded around as proof that we are supposed to gather and worship on 'saturday' but nothing in Levitical law mentions saturday, or gathering and worshipping on any particular day - not to mention the fact that those self-same legalists deny the applicability of Levitical law.
So the two questions still remain, can anyone answer them, or will they still be avoided in preference to promoting false doctrine as the Word of God?
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JP,
Saturday isn't mentioned in the Bible. Neither is Sunday.
All we have to go by is the seventh day of the week and the first day of the week.
I don't know if there is a commandment to gather together every sabbath day. I see a commandment that tells everyone to stay in their places on the sabbath day.
There are commandments for people to gather on Holydays. These being the feasts when we come together and celebrate.
Like we do in our holidays. Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving...
I would like to mention something I found interesting.
God said that for six days he would rain down manna. And on the seventh day there would be none.
Now manna to me means the word of God. That God feeds us with the bread from his mouth.
How is it that the Jews only taught in the synagogues on the seventh day, when God said He would not provide any manna for that day, and everyone was to stay in their place. I would take that to mean tent/house/home.
If the Jews were gathering together on the sabbath day and taking collections of tithes on that day, then that means that people would be carrying something..money/animals..whatever with them to the temple.
The Jews got upset with the man who carried his bed on the sabbath day. For Jesus putting clay on a man's eyes. For eating corn.
So I'm looking at a bit of hypocrisy here. It's ok to leave your houses and bring money to the temple on the sabbath, but it's not ok to pick up your own bed, pluck your own food, or heal another.
God's words are for healing. If the people were going to the temple to hear the word of God, then those who were hearing were being healed.
But I don't think they were recieving the right kind of manna, because God said that on the seventh day there wouldn't be any.
I'm not picking on anyone, just telling how I see it..for now.
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Good response Lone, however:
| Quote: | | All we have to go by is the seventh day of the week and the first day of the week. |
If one were to look to the OT then one would not see ANY reference to a day of the 'week', but simply a command to labor for six days and rest on the seventh.
If one were to look to the NT then one would see the first reference to 'week' in regards to the gathering, breaking of bread, and taking collections on the first day of the week, also known as 'The Lord's Day'.
I also look to Jesus and what He said and did, nowhere did He make a reference to or command to gather and worship on any particular day. The closest we get is references in the Gospels that tell us that it was Jesus habit to teach in the temple on the sabbath day, but also that He was never limited to the Sabbath day, He taught often on any given day.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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The first time week is mentioned is here in these passages.
Gen 29:18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
Gen 29:19 And Laban said, [It is] better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
Gen 29:20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him [but] a few days, for the love he had to her.
Gen 29:21 ¶ And Jacob said unto Laban, Give [me] my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
Gen 29:22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
Gen 29:23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
Gen 29:24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid [for] an handmaid.
Gen 29:25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it [was] Leah: and he said to Laban, What [is] this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
Gen 29:26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.
Gen 29:27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
Gen 29:28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
Gen 29:29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
Gen 29:30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
Is a week seven years? seven days?
seven years seemed but a few days...
a day is as a thousand years...
Our time is nothing like God's time..that's for sure.
God Bless
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2979
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: God hates a physical Sabbath |
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Did you know that when Jesus Christ comes again.....He is coming for Sabbath-Keepers ?
IF, you knew what the Mark of the Beast was, you'd know that fact !
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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theseldomscene
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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amen jp...well said and so true...
nevermind the fact also that we are told clearly that the sabbath is in HIM...and so in that light yes silver is right...HE is coming back for sabbath keepers...those in HIM....
lone,
i understand know what you are saying ...but i cannot agree that with your over all assessment the way it is worded(though i agree with much of it)...simply because the scriptures are clear on the matter and it is not veiled or hidden...imo...and there is a solid sripturally based time to reject a teaching and the teacher...i just found it again today  ...
ps...for all's info...there was more written on the sabbath laws(i.e. explaining what it is and what work on the sabbath is...ect) by the jewish religious leaders...than was written on any other o.t. law...so yes...it has long been a hot topic... |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Silver,
If I follow the meaning of the sabbath to the conclusion I've seen so far, then that would mean that Christ is coming back for all those who are dead in Him so that we will be made alive when he comes to get us.
Those who have not kept the sabbath, that is died in Christ, will not rise again on the first day when He comes back.
or the third day he revives us...not sure how that third day fits in there yet.. 
Well I know in the book of revelation it says that men shall seek death and shall not find it.
So they can not enter in to the sabbath or death in Christ because they have no faith.
And if you don't die in Christ, you don't get resurected with him in life so that could be an indication too..
just tossin salad here..
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lone wrote: | | Well I know in the book of revelation it says that men shall seek death and shall not find it. |
and that portion of scripture has always fascinated me.. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that verse is refering to those who will not enter into His sabbath which is Christ.
What are the rocks falling on them...the law. So that they will be condemned by the law so that they can repent and be born again..
It's all intertwined. It's like a big ball of yarn. And everybody is saying pretty much the same things just different angles.
They say we are righteous we have no sin, and then when Christ comes they seek to hide within the law but it is the very law that condemns them.
They try to return that is repent, but instead of being washed by water they are washed with fire and brimstone....
And they cry to the rocks to hide them from the wrath of God, but they didn't listen when they had the chance.
Kind of like what Jesus was telling Nicodemus. John told you to repent and be baptised but you refused, so now is come the judgement and you are filthy in your sins.
Ye must be born again...which means you have to die. And when you die, you enter into the sabbath. But because they chose to save their lives and not be baptised they're going to lose it. They will seek death and will not find it. times up!!
Like looking for manna on the seventh day..it won't be found.
It all ties in weird like that..
that's how I see it for now...
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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good stuff...i can agree, but also see it literally...the o.t. prophets help a lot there and touch on it often...
now when HE comes for HIS...from what i see...and when they return with HIM...then tHEy will actually impliment the original o.t. law....that is the rod of iron that the FATHER gave JESUS that HE will give to those that reign with HIM that the world will be ruled by during the thousand year reign... from my limited finite understanding...
though i may not have worded this correctly it should convey the idea... |
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MoJo
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Posts: 3238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting idea tss. So far, I haven't been able to figure out where the last few chapters of Ezekial fit in and have always had the idea it might be during the 1000 year reign. A return of the law????? Hmmm. Interesting.
Paul's curious statement
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow **of things to come**; but the body [is] of Christ.
Some translations don't read exactly like that.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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