 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: executing pregnant women... |
 |
|
here is my question...this is a question that is limited to the bounds presented...i know the question itself is full of flaws, but i am just trying for the idea....i know that the possiblity for such a case is very small anywhere and almost impossible in the american legal system...but while talking with my wife...the strange question was brought up...
if a woman lives in a society where abortion is legal...
and that society has a very quick system for executing capital offenses....
and a pregnant woman was found guilty of a capital offense...would it be ok, in your opinion, for that society to execute her while she is pregnant?...
you see...in the o.t. if a woman was caught in adultry she was to be stoned(i know what JESUS said...and i am not arguing against that...)...but what i am pointing out is...
as far as i know there is no law that says they must wait to see if she is pregnant and let her have the baby first is there?...i can't remember any...but haven't looked specifically....
should she and the man be executed without her possible pregnancy ever being considered?...or if she was pregnant and murdered someone?...especially if in a place where abortion is a legal option anyway... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
hmm..
so far the only "law" I see concerning pregnant women..
Exd 21:22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
Exd 21:23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exd 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exd 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Not sure what the fruit departs from her includes?
early pregnancy? miscarriage?
The fact it says yet no mischief follows, leads me to believe the child is not harmed.
But if mischief follows...mischief to whom? the fruit that departed from her? If mischief follows, then it is life for life, eye for eye....
So then what if it is the legal system itself or the judge that kills the woman and causes her fruit to depart and mischief follows?
Is the executioner/judge held to the same punishment?
Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
So I would think that if there is no fault in the child which is to be born, then they should have to wait for the child to be born, so the child is not punished for the parents sin.
just my opinion...
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: executing pregnant women... |
|
|
| theseldomscene wrote: | if a woman lives in a society where abortion is legal...
and that society has a very quick system for executing capital offenses....
and a pregnant woman was found guilty of a capital offense...would it be ok, in your opinion, for that society to execute her while she is pregnant?... |
Hmmm...IMPO...most people aren't put to death quickly as soon as they're condemned (at least in the US, at least). Many people are on death row for years before they are finally executed. Now, considering if this was a different society...I don't think they should.
If a woman chooses to carry to term, she should be able to regardless of the crap she has done. I know I am pro-choice, and perhaps my old pro-life side is shining through a bit, but I don't see why the fetus should be condemned along with the woman.
I mean, she wanted to carry to term and that should be her last wish before she's executed.
| Quote: | | as far as i know there is no law that says they must wait to see if she is pregnant and let her have the baby first is there?...i can't remember any...but haven't looked specifically.... |
I don't know if there is a law, but people on both sides of the debate would actually be in a uproar. Pro-lifers would believe that an innocent life was condemned due to the actions of the woman while pro-choicers (most of them for that matter) would think that putting the woman to death was immoral as well as killing her fetus along side with her...especially if she wanted to carry to term...is in a way, a forced abortion even though she's dying alongside the fetus.
However, it depends where she is in the pregnancy too. Even if it's not around viable, I still think the pregnacy should be carried to term if it was her wish to do so.
| Quote: | | should she and the man be executed without her possible pregnancy ever being considered?... |
imo, no
| Quote: | | or if she was pregnant and murdered someone?... |
still no
| Quote: | | especially if in a place where abortion is a legal option anyway... |
If she wanted to carry to term, despite what her stance on abortion was, she should be able to. Forced abortion, which would happen if she did die pregnant, isn't any better.
BTW, can I have your persmission to post your thread on the site I moderate at (Pro-Choice talk?).
_________________
When do we stop learning? Maybe never |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7618
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: executing pregnant women... |
|
|
| theseldomscene wrote: |
and a pregnant woman was found guilty of a capital offense...would it be ok, in your opinion, for that society to execute her while she is pregnant?...
|
Traditionally, women sentenced to die have always been able to get at least a temporary reprieve by getting pregnant.
A good example is Anne Bonny and Mary Reed, two female pirates who were sentenced to death, but were able to buy time (and maybe even more than that) by getting pregnant. This would not have been hard for female prisoners to do, given that all of the guards were male...
Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Bonny
As for my personal opinion, I think it's a tough question. Is it a good idea to give a woman a temporary reprieve until she gives birth and then execute her?
What happens when the child grows up and wants revenge on society for killing his mother?
On the other hand, is it ok to execute an innocent baby for a crime it didn't commit?
But then again, it's not really a baby; it's just a fetus, which has no rights under the law...
Good moral / legal question!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sure as long as it is understood....that i know this could not happen here...but it is the concpet that deserves discussion...like...
| lynn wrote: | | but I don't see why the fetus should be condemned along with the woman. |
i understand part of the arguement to be that a woman has a right to control her body...
but many rights over ones body are forfeited if they commit a crime....
so if the state says a fetus is not deserving of protect...then what should it matter if she is pregnant or not?...
why is it ok for her to determine her baby is a fetus not fitting of human rights....force the state to say it is a fetus not fitting of human rights...then say it should be up to her whether or not it lives...why should it be?...
if she is in state custody and the state says fetuses have no hman rights but are nothing more than a mas of cells and the carrier commited a horrible offense that the laws of the state said deserved death...like if a pregnant woman was caught smuggling dope into indonesia...there is one trial...maybe an appeal and death usually within twentyfour hours....the whole process can take a little as eight days...
so if abortion was legal in that place...why not just kill her while she is pregnant since the fetus has no recognized human rights?...
and to answer you...
how can a fetus that is not a life be condemened?...and if it is a life...then how can the mother choose to stop it?... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
holy snot booger batman...i made a promise to myself not to get into anymore political discussions...forgive me for lying JESUS...
how did that happen?...man...
i wish i would have just not said anything...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| theseldomscene wrote: | | sure as long as it is understood....that i know this could not happen here...but it is the concpet that deserves discussion...like... |
Yeah, I will make it clear it isn't a possiblity in the states or the countries that do have the death penality illegalized.
| Quote: | | so if the state says a fetus is not deserving of protect...then what should it matter if she is pregnant or not?... |
Well, it would depend if they have restrictions once a certain stage is reached. I understand how most countries with legalized abortion don't recognize personhood until birth happens. Yet, they have restriction once, for example, viablity is reached.
If they have a law that says it's okay to terminate a pregnancy up till a certain point (per sae 24 weeks for example)...then if a woman is pregnant with a early-term pregnancy...then I guess I don't see why they would care if they executed her along with the pregnancy since early terms aren't protected.
Now, if they have a restriction and the death penalty isn't included, then they would have to let the woman carry to term then since they put protection on that fetus.
So, I guess it would depend on what stage the woman is at in her pregnancy and if that state has a restriction after a certain point.
| Quote: | | why is it ok for her to determine her baby is a fetus not fitting of human rights....force the state to say it is a fetus not fitting of human rights...then say it should be up to her whether or not it lives...why should it be?... |
as I stated above, it would depend if the state has a restriction on abortion and where she is in term. If she lives in a society where abortion is legal throughout all three terms, then it wouldn't be an issue to execute her along with the fetus. If she lives in a society where there is a restriction unless there's a problem with her health or the fetus' health, then she should carry unless there's an exception of the death penalty. If she is in a term that's way before viablity (like 8 weeks), then they are entitled to execute her.
However...it goes back to determine where she is in the pregnancy and if that state has a protection on fetuses after a certain point.
| Quote: | | so if abortion was legal in that place...why not just kill her while she is pregnant since the fetus has no recognized human rights?... |
If they dont' have any protection over the fetus like have restrictions and abortion is legalize throughout the whole nine months, then no...there isn't an issue with executing her while being pregnant.
| Quote: | and to answer you...
how can a fetus that is not a life be condemened?...and if it is a life...then how can the mother choose to stop it?... |
Well, a fetus is a life. The question is whether it's a person or not, which I don't think it's recognize until birth.
Even though I don't think it's a person till birth, I think abortion should be retricted after viability from being done electively. The only times abortion should be done after viablity is therapeutical reasons like her life is in danger or there's some major issue with the fetus.
However, since the fetus can't survive outside the womb anyway before viability, I don't see any reason why a woman can't terminate.
_________________
When do we stop learning? Maybe never |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
thank you lynn for sharing...
if you do post the question...would you provide a link?...i won't get invovled but would like to hear other people opinion of this...
i generally try to stay out of the debate part of the abortion thing as i will never need one...
i only get active when i need clarification on something someone has said or they show what appears to be a contradiction in their arguement that i need them to explain...
but the issue itself is not a driving force for me one way or the other...i just have some things i would like to know...thank you...GOD bless... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| theseldomscene wrote: | | thank you lynn for sharing... |
you welcome
| Quote: | | if you do post the question...would you provide a link?...i won't get invovled but would like to hear other people opinion of this... |
http://www.prochoicetalk.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?t=5373&start=0
I did make it clear in that post that this wasn't something that could happen in the states as you pointed out. However, people still based their opinions on the state issues...which I think it was natural. However, I think people like the question in general just in case it is a reality in other societies.
I did had to omit the part about women being stoned if they committed adultery because I posted it in the main forum and didn't think the post was over all theological enough to be posted in the theology forum.
_________________
When do we stop learning? Maybe never |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
