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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
P1234567890 & Ponder,
I get something diff. from that passage. I agree with you that God was giving him specific credentials and instructions, however listen how God is telling Jeremiah, if God has the capabilities to see him BEFORE he was formed, that leads me to the conclusion that God looks at all who are born BEFORE they are born, and plans there life.
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So God planned Hitler's life as well? Did He plan for Hitler to kill millions of innocent people?
Or take any serial killer. If God planned for them to be serial killers, then how can we possibly throw them in jail or execute them when we catch them? Shouldn't we revere them as simply 'doing the will of God'?
| saibe wrote: |
God is know respecter of persons, what he did for David Jeremiah and all the others he did does and is doing for us.
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You can believe this if you want, but I assert that you don't have a shred of scriptural evidence to support this position.
| saibe wrote: |
P1234567890
I think this is a great question, Ive wondered about it myself. Let me ask you a question. What if I(or someone asked me ) to jumb off the bridge. Could I go do it if I wanted to? yes you could. God has given you free will to do what you want. He gives us a choice to do what eva we want or follow him. Back to the brigde, if I decided to jump, it was in his plan. I chose to jump instead of following him.
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You can believe that God knows everything about our lives before we're even born, or you can believe that we have free will, but you can't believe both.
Suppose that God is omniscient as you suggest. You will either have eggs for breakfast tomorrow morning or you won't. God knows RIGHT NOW what you're going to have. Tomorrow morning you will eat exactly what God RIGHT NOW knows you're going to eat.
Clearly this argument generalizes to anything you're ever going to do, so you don't have any free will, since you can never do anything contrary to what God knows you're going to do. Your actions are completely determined and not free at all.
So either God is omniscient, or you have free will, but both cannot be true. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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P1234567890 wrote
So God planned Hitler's life as well? Did He plan for Hitler to kill millions of innocent people?
Or take any serial killer. If God planned for them to be serial killers, then how can we possibly throw them in jail or execute them when we catch them? Shouldn't we revere them as simply 'doing the will of God'?
saibe said
James 1:13-15 (New International Version)
3When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; [code]14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.[/i]
Yes God did plan their lives, BUT the road they decided to take was agaist God. Hitler could have been Da Vinche, he was told that his paintings were no good, so we know the rest of the story. He made a choice.
If you say that God did't know what Hitler would do then you negate that God is omnipresent and omniscient. So I guess it was a complete surprise when he heard the cries of jews and non jews during the Hitler era. I guess he did not know how to deliver the people from hitler when the US stepped in? God used what the devil wanted for evil for good. The world was at the peak of communism this help shed light on what communism is really about.
Have you read about Joseph and his brothers? If you havent please do, its wonderful story. This is an example of how God knows, and actually plans your life and at any time Joseph could have stepped out on his own will but he didt. It's too long for me to paraphrase for you so please do read it. Genisis 37:1- 50:26
saibe said
God is know respecter of persons, what he did for David Jeremiah and all the others he did does and is doing for us.
P1234567890 wrote
You can believe this if you want, but I assert that you don't have a shred of scriptural evidence to support this position.
saibe said
Acts 10:34
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
God had told peter to go and present salvation to gentiles, which was out of the ordinary becouse God chosen people had been only the jews.
[quote="saibe said"]
P1234567890
I think this is a great question, Ive wondered about it myself. Let me ask you a question. What if I(or someone asked me ) to jumb off the bridge. Could I go do it if I wanted to? yes you could. God has given you free will to do what you want. He gives us a choice to do what eva we want or follow him. Back to the brigde, if I decided to jump, it was in his plan. I chose to jump instead of following him.
[/quote]
P1234567890 wrote
You can believe that God knows everything about our lives before we're even born, or you can believe that we have free will, but you can't believe both.
saibe said
I beleive both, you have a choice of what you can beleive, but my bible tells me I should beleive both.
When Job was tested by God he lost every thing he worked for. His children, workers, wealth, health and animals. God allowed (did't cause them) these things to happen prove his faithfulness to satan. Everyone talked about job his freinds his wife told him he should just curse God and die. But no Job still had faith in him. Would God had let satan test him if he did not know that Job would pass the test. But at anytime he could have given up and cursed God.
P1234567890 said
Suppose that God is omniscient as you suggest. You will either have eggs for breakfast tomorrow morning or you won't. God knows RIGHT NOW what you're going to have. Tomorrow morning you will eat exactly what God RIGHT NOW knows you're going to eat.
saibe said
I dont eat egss anyway, but to ablidge you I could decide to go to Ihop, Dennys, what have you becouse I can do what I want to do. I have a choice. I could hop on a plane to Pari and have french toast and eggs. I have a choice. Whether or not God knows what you going to do you STILL HAVE A CHOICE becouse he given me free wil to do as I please. Whether I choose him or something else I'll face the consequese.
P1234567890
Clearly this argument generalizes to anything you're ever going to do, so you don't have any free will, since you can never do anything contrary to what God knows you're going to do. Your actions are completely determined and not free at all.
saibe said
He's omniscient omnipresent and I still have a choice if I want to eat eggs out of a trash dumpster.
P1234567890 said
So either God is omniscient, or you have free will, but both cannot be true.[/quote]
saibe said
Well whether you beleive or not it's your choice but I choose to beleive. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
I dont eat egss anyway, but to ablidge you I could decide to go to Ihop, Dennys, what have you becouse I can do what I want to do. I have a choice. I could hop on a plane to Pari and have french toast and eggs. I have a choice. Whether or not God knows what you going to do you STILL HAVE A CHOICE becouse he given me free wil to do as I please. |
No. If you're going to have eggs tomorrow morning, then God knows RIGHT NOW that you're going to have eggs tomorrow morning. That means that when tomorrow morning comes, you will have eggs. There is NO WAY you can choose otherwise, because that would contradict God's omniscience. In other words, you don't have free will. You are completely constrained by what God already knows.
If God is omniscient, that really does mean that you don't have free will. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No. If you're going to have eggs tomorrow morning, then God knows RIGHT NOW that you're going to have eggs tomorrow morning. That means that when tomorrow morning comes, you will have eggs. There is NO WAY you can choose otherwise, because that would contradict God's omniscience. In other words, you don't have free will. You are completely constrained by what God already knows. |
So, becouse God knows what I am going to do, this means I dont have free will to do what I please? You got wrong.
Lets say you have a child, and this child keeps on flirting with climbing out of the high chair. There still going to climb out if the DECIDE TO. And just becouse you knew what they would do, doesnt mean they didt have free will.
this is so totally of the original topic. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
So, becouse God knows what I am going to do, this means I dont have free will to do what I please? You got wrong.
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Obviously. If God knows that you're going to eat a steak tomorrow for dinner at 6 p.m. Then you're not going to be able to choose otherwise. At 5:59 will you be able to choose to have spaghetti for dinner? No, obviously not, because God already knows that you're going to have steak. Isn't this obvious?
| saibe wrote: |
this is so totally of the original topic. |
There I'll agree with you! But it came out of Pondering's question to you asking whether or not God takes a personal interest in all 6 billion people on Earth.
If you want to get back to discussing abortion, then that's fine with me. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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right, now I remeber, is it safe to say that Ive proved that God is interested in the appr 6 billion people?
We could prob. argue free will for days. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: | | right, now I remeber, is it safe to say that Ive proved that God is interested in the appr 6 billion people? |
No, not even close! There are major theological problems...
First of all, we are not being clear. Are you saying that God is just 'interested' in everyone's life, or are you saying that he has a plan and a destiny for every person?
The plan / destiny argument has serious problems because then you have to deal with Hitler and serial killers and why God plans for such terrible and evil things to happen. (And you also have to deal with free will, which is why I brought it up in the first place.) |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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sorry for pulling it off topic...I knew it would...but to me, it is THE central issue in the abortion debate...that issue being whether its is "wrong"/a "sin"/"evil"...
keeping off topic a secon longer, I'll just say that like P#s, I argue that both of these premises can't be true:
1) Humans have free will and make choices
2) God has a plan for everyone.
If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then I can't make choices since he's already drawn out the roadmap.
Even under premise 1 (free will), then if God is omniscient he knows what people are doing and going to do...yet he allows great suffering to happen (even unto innocents)...and, despite being omnipowerful...he allows it happen. That's cruel. If God is cruel, then he can't be omnibenevolent since he allows suffering....It's the classic "The problem of Evil" scenario. My personal argument is that the Biblical God is capricious at best and insane at worst...but that's me 
You're new here to the boards, so I'll cut to the chase that those were all leading questions (to which I appreciate your honest answers  )...
I'll also cut to the chase that I don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, but rather a set of writings by men (primarily men of Jewish tradition, with the odd Greek/Roman thrown in) that think they understand the nature/desires of God over a period dating from rought 1500 BC to 100 AD. It's as much the word of God as the Muslim's Quran or Euclids "Elements" is...
Therefore, The "Abortion is a Sin to God and so shouldn't be legal" doesn't wash with me...there are other good secular reasons to oppose abortion and there are other valid ways to decrease abortions even when it is legal...
Finally, my biggest complaint are those that most strongly argue against abortion don't really have a good practicable solution on what to do with all those unwanted children... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | there are other good secular reasons to oppose abortion |
Really? Such as..? |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | there are other good secular reasons to oppose abortion |
Really? Such as..? |
- It decreases the value of an individual's human life...
- It creates psychologic distress in the mother as there are very primal instincts to "protect" offspring... I believe our primary code is to propegate the species...
There are others that pretty much spin from the point of our Declaration of Indepdence..."all men are created equal;that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable right;that among these are life..."
There are a couple of problems with these lines of thinking...first and obviously, is it blurs the line between religion and secular by pointing to a Creator. Second, it adds the argument of when does "life" begin? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
- It decreases the value of an individual's human life...
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But does it? Never before has abortion been as prevalent as it is today in North America, but simultaneously never before has human life been so respected...
Just compare World Wars I and II with their horrific death tolls and complete disregard for human life with the complete care with which the Iraq war is being waged... We literally have lawyers telling soldiers what they can and can't do because it might endanger too many civilians!
| Pondering wrote: |
- It creates psychologic distress in the mother as there are very primal instincts to "protect" offspring... I believe our primary code is to propegate the species...
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But does it? If our culture was completely accepting of abortion, would women who have abortions feel guilty? I assert that at least part of the reason why women feel guilty is because religious groups use targeted propaganda designed to make them feel guilty.
| Pondering wrote: |
There are a couple of problems with these lines of thinking...first and obviously, is it blurs the line between religion and secular by pointing to a Creator. Second, it adds the argument of when does "life" begin? |
And if it were up to you, what would the laws be like? Would abortion be legal? Would there be a 'cut-off date' during the pregnancy at which point abortion is no longer allowed?
I've never heart your opinions on these matters, and I'd be interested to know... |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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hmmm...
yeah, I could point out other viewpoints (such as the murder rates in American cities) that indicate that life is not considered precious....
to cut to the last point...
If I was benevolent dictator....
I would allow abortion, but require counselling...
It would always be allowed in cases involving rape or incest.
It would always be a choice for severe birth defects for which no "quality of life" could be assured for the child.
I would not allow 3rd trimester abortions nor would I allow partial-birth techniques...
Of course, I'm also the "conservative" that would decriminalize drugs....so, I may not be the best rep |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | hmmm...
yeah, I could point out other viewpoints (such as the murder rates in American cities) that indicate that life is not considered precious....
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Did murder rates suddenly start increasing after abortions were legalized?
It is my understanding that they actually went down... About 15 - 20 years after Roe v. Wade, crime rates dropped mysteriously and dramatically. This makes sense, because unwanted children have a much higher probability of becoming criminals, so if you abort them, you end up with fewer criminals and less crime per capita.
| Pondering wrote: |
Of course, I'm also the "conservative" that would decriminalize drugs....so, I may not be the best rep |
While we've got you in the throne so to speak, let me ask you a few more questions:
What would you do about warrantless wiretaps, Habeas Corpus, and the NSA reading every single e-mail sent in the entire country?
Also, would you do anything about Muslim immigration?
Oh yeah, and what about the death penalty? Would it stay or would it go? If it stays, would you change the method of execution? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Pondering..
You running for president..!!..  |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
While we've got you in the throne so to speak, let me ask you a few more questions:
What would you do about warrantless wiretaps, |
OK..as long as there is a post-tap report/review
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Habeas Corpus, |
Based on the folks this generally is a concern for...i prefer Corpus deadus...but i understand your point.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
and the NSA reading every single e-mail sent in the entire country? |
Your kidding right? Do you really think anyone (especially a government agency) could be efficient enough to read through 15 billion emails a day...everyday?
This whole NSA thing a mix of paranoia and narcissism at its finest....IMO
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Also, would you do anything about Muslim immigration?
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Not especially...I'm pretty generous to those that are willing to follow the rules (which I would set as pretty wide)...of course, I would be brutal to those that break those rules...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Oh yeah, and what about the death penalty? Would it stay or would it go? If it stays, would you change the method of execution? |
It would stay...be limited to a clearer set of criteria and there would be fewer appeals...and yes, I understand there is danger of executing innocents....and I wouldn't change the method of execution...generally, I'd go for lethal injection. We put rapid dogs and racoons to sleep, but not rapid people... |
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