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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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RND, up in the thread with apoc you accuse him of twisting your words and yet practice the same thing with me.
| Quote: | | Mojo, no matter how you try to justify the disobedience to God's holy and just law which is truth, it is still disobedience. |
Where did I ever try to justify disobedience? This is indeed false witness.
You are trying to say that because God had relationships with individuals like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that entire Gentile nations also had a relationship with God. I have to ask if you've ever read the OT. The invisible things of God are manifest to all people by his creation, and some things are common to all men, such as the gifts of substanance out of the earth, but you want to confuse this with the additional things given specifically to Israel.
If you do not believe the scriptures, that's up to you
Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
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RND
Bear Cub
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | RND, up in the thread with apoc you accuse him of twisting your words and yet practice the same thing with me.
| Quote: | | Mojo, no matter how you try to justify the disobedience to God's holy and just law which is truth, it is still disobedience. |
Where did I ever try to justify disobedience? This is indeed false witness. |
I honestly believe you are attempting to teach that we are not subject to all the law because it is not in our nature to keep all of the law. You say 6 outta 10. I disagree. And I see this as an attempt at justifiying disobedience.
If you feel I twisted your words I apologize to you. But to suggest that God has only placed some of His laws in our hearts, and not all, is ludicrous.
You don't need a Bible to tell you that stealing, murder, and the like is wrong. But you do need God to tell you these things. No matter who you are or where you are from. Likewise, I believe the first four commandments are also placed in our hearts as well.
| Quote: | | You are trying to say that because God had relationships with individuals like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that entire Gentile nations also had a relationship with God. I have to ask if you've ever read the OT. |
God has made his presence known to all His creatures at one time or another. It would be the mark of an unloving an unfair God expect those that had never heard of Jesus Christ to love that, and accept that which they had never known. Yet, they will be judged by the same standards.
How is this? God has spoken to everyone who has ever lived at some point in their life.
| Quote: | | The invisible things of God are manifest to all people by his creation, and some things are common to all men, such as the gifts of substanance out of the earth, but you want to confuse this with the additional things given specifically to Israel. |
No not only do I not confuse this, it shows the vital importance of sharing with other's the character and loving nature of our Heavenly Father to other's, to which 'assignment' the Israelites failed miserably.
These folks were severely punished for their failure at sharing with the world what God the Father had done do them and for them.
This is why Jesus finally said to them, "Your house is left desolate."
That's why the requirement, "To whom much is given, much is expected" is so vitally important. The Israelites were to be a shinning beakon on a hill for all the peoples of the earth.
| Quote: | | If you do not believe the scriptures, that's up to you |
Oh, stop. I believe them just fine, so much so as to actually listen, but not by any of my doing but He that worketh in me.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God so loved the World....I would assume that meant everything in it and on it created by Jesus Christ. From the most lowly to the most high on earth. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I have a question since it concerns laws that were given to Israelites only and not to Gentiles...
Was the levitical priesthood already in place before God called the hebrews out of Egypt?
The reason I ask is because of this here:
God is telling Moses to go to Pharaoh and tell him to set my people free. They haven't come out of Egypt yet, their still in there ok?
and then God tells Moses:
Exd 4:14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, [Is] not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
These are Moses' parents:
Exd 2:1 ¶ And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took [to wife] a daughter of Levi.
Levi is one of the sons born to Jacob through Leah:
Gen 29:34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.
In Genesis 34 Dinah Jacobs daughter Levi's sister is defiled by a man of the land they are journeying in. And Jacob's sons tell these men that they will give Dinah to this man and their daughters to their sons and their daughters for their sons, but they must first be circumcised. This was to weaken their defenses so that Simeon and Levi could go among them and slaughter them while they were incapacitated.
Gen 34:25 ¶ And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males.
You will notice that in the levitical priesthood it is always Levi that performs the sacrifices. no one else is allowed to perform them.
It is also through the sacrificing of a lamb that the hebrews are told to save themselves from the passover that God is sending to destroy all the firstborn.
It is by the mouth of Aaron which is of the line of Levi in which the hebrews are taken out of Egypt. And then the levitical priesthood is established as the rite of the sons of Levi to perform.
But Jacob says of Levi:
Gen 34:30 And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I [being] few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.
In the end it is the sacrifices that are done away with by Jesus himself being the sacrificial lamb for all mankind.
Do you think that the levitical priesthood that was established in the midst of Israel was to be as an omen that they brought down on their own heads?
Because Levi decieved the Gentiles by promising them inheritance with them and giving them the covenant of circumcision and then destroying them while they were still healing, that God turned this act upon Levi's own head?
God was angry with Moses for not wanting to go alone and bring the people out of Egypt. So God sent Aaron to go with Moses to be his spokesman for him.
Moses told Pharaoh that he wanted to take the people out of the land to perform sacrifices to God. I'm wondering if those God was taking out of Egypt were those who were to be sacrificed.
When they did leave Egypt and wondered through the wilderness, it was that whole generation that died before they came into the new land.
Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself will fall. It could be that Moses was sent out from the family of Levi to become the family of Gentiles by adoption of Pharaohs daughter to remove Levi from the priesthood once and for all.
Pharaoh detested shepherds and animal sacrifices and that's why God told Moses to tell Pharaoh to let his people go. But when they wouldn't obey God destroyed them for not listening and destroyed that generation of Levi at the same time. Howbeit it took a long time but in the end all animal sacrifices had come to an end.
As well as the levitical priesthood.
The ordinances of the law were nailed to the cross with the lamb that was sacrificed for the world.
Like Levi killed his own father Jacob just as Jacob had said he would.
Gen 34:30 And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I [being] few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.
Maybe if Moses had gone on alone in the first place, no levitical priesthood would have been set up, no animal sacrifices would have been made, and when they entered into the land that had been promised to Abraham, who's own hand was stayed from slaying his son, then maybe they would have remained and we would be there still.
It's interesting really, When Christ came he removed the fear of the knife towards men and the fear of the knife towards animals. He removed circumcision and animal sacrifices so no one would have to live under the dominance and fear of the sword. Yet we still to this day keep these same practices even though they have been removed.
Why do we torture ourselves when God himself has removed the fear of torture? For man and beast.
And has granted us mercy towards all living things.
I don't know...the human mind is a mystery... |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| RND wrote: | | I honestly believe you are attempting to teach that we are not subject to all the law because it is not in our nature to keep all of the law. You say 6 outta 10. I disagree. And I see this as an attempt at justifiying disobedience. |
Sigh! I can only conclude that you actually didn't read my posts. Will I be wasting my time if I respond? Maybe others will actually read and understand what I said.
| RND wrote: | | You don't need a Bible to tell you that stealing, murder, and the like is wrong. But you do need God to tell you these things. No matter who you are or where you are from. Likewise, I believe the first four commandments are also placed in our hearts as well. |
If the laws had already been written on everyone's heart, then I suppose it was redundant for God to say he **would** write them in our hearts.
| Quote: | | These folks were severely punished for their failure at sharing with the world what God the Father had done do them and for them. |
I was right; you haven't read the OT.
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RND
Bear Cub
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | | Sigh! I can only conclude that you actually didn't read my posts. Will I be wasting my time if I respond? Maybe others will actually read and understand what I said. |
Unfortunately I did indeed read what you wrote. I'm in complete disagreement with it that's all. No big deal.
| Quote: | | If the laws had already been written on everyone's heart, then I suppose it was redundant for God to say he **would** write them in our hearts. |
Then how, for example, did Adam and Eve know they committed transgression? Cain?
| Quote: | | I was right; you haven't read the OT. |
No, you're wrong. Just like the premise of your OP. I suppose all those curses and punishments suffered by the Tribes of Israel were really *gold stars on the forehead* for a job well done. Sheesh. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| RND wrote: | | Then how, for example, did Adam and Eve know they committed transgression? Cain? |
Could it be that after they ate of the "tree of KNOWLEDGE" that they KNEW now what they didn't know before? |
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brendan
Big Guppy
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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 Greets all
The sabbath is a covenant made by God at creation which predates Moses aswell as the rest of the law.Sin is the transgression of the Law.Without Law there would be no sin.The law was known to Adam and Eve and they transgressed the law.It was later given to Moses written in stone.And finnally Summed up by Christ in two very distinct commandments which compacted the ten into two:The love of our Father and the love for one another.Add these two together and the sum is Love.
We know from scripture that The Father is Love in spirit.If we share this same spirit of love then we are truly his children at one with our Father as a family.Awsome indeed!So be it! |
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RND
Bear Cub
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | | RND wrote: | | Then how, for example, did Adam and Eve know they committed transgression? Cain? |
Could it be that after they ate of the "tree of KNOWLEDGE" that they KNEW now what they didn't know before? |
Certainly, there's no question about that. Yet the scriptures definately point out that they ignored the commandment of God.
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve disobeyed God and listened to that wylie old serpent, the Devil and Satan, instead of paying attention to God. Satan told them the first lie and they listened.
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | | Will I be wasting my time if I respond? Maybe others will actually read and understand what I said. |
We do, MoJo, we do. Those who respond to our posts are by no means the only ones who read them. It's also common on message boards for there to be many more people lurking, just reading, besides those who regularly post.
And because all our discussions are in print and can be read at whatever pace we need to, and read over, what's shared here can bless a lot of people over the time the board exists.
For the same reason, less than honest tactics of debate are also easily recognizable by anyone reading. It's all there in print. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's all there in print. |
Very true Zath. Something some folks should remember when they say things about others, for what could have been slander becomes libel when in print... |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I hardly know where to post this with so many threads touching on the sabbath, so this is as good as any I guess.
Some advocate that the sabbath commandment was given to all men since the creation, but the following shows it wasn't.
Eze 20:10 ¶ Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
Eze 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which [if] a man do, he shall even live in them.
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, **to be a sign between me and them,** that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.
Neh 9:12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:
Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mojo,
The OTand NT state clearly that the letter of the law was given to the Jews. You are right and their is absolutely no other way to interpret the scriptures. The Gentiles had a law written in their heart, but as Romans 2 shows, neither Jew or Gentile by either law can attain to the righteousness that is required to stand before God.
Before the 'Lamb of God' was sacrificed one time once and for all, all had come short of the glory of God.
If one is going to be judged by either law he will meet with death. The Law of liberty that we are admonished to be judged by has nothing to do with either law. The Law of Liberty has to do with the 'Rest' that we enter into when we 'Believe'; when we believe that Christ died for the sin of the world. Unfortunately I don't see much evidence that many believe that! 
In Christ, Judy |
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RND
Bear Cub
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | | The OTand NT state clearly that the letter of the law was given to the Jews. |
This is factually incorrect simply because there were 11 other tribes that were part of Israel. Furthermore, the "letter" of the law was dictated to Moses by God the Father. The "perminent law", written in stone, was written with God's own finger.
| Quote: | | You are right and their is absolutely no other way to interpret the scriptures. |
Other than ignoring facts, this would be correct.
| Quote: | | The Gentiles had a law written in their heart, but as Romans 2 shows, neither Jew or Gentile by either law can attain to the righteousness that is required to stand before God. |
This is quite true. However, it was also true in the time before the Messiah came. Grace, by faith, is a recurring theme in the OT as well.
| Quote: | | Before the 'Lamb of God' was sacrificed one time once and for all, all had come short of the glory of God. |
"All" still come short of the glory of God.
| Quote: | | If one is going to be judged by either law he will meet with death. |
This is true. Everyone dies. No exceptions.
| Quote: | The Law of liberty that we are admonished to be judged by has nothing to do with either law. The Law of Liberty has to do with the 'Rest' that we enter into when we 'Believe'; when we believe that Christ died for the sin of the world. Unfortunately I don't see much evidence that many believe that!
In Christ, Judy |
I truly wonder sometimes what "Protestants" think they might be protesting. Anyway, the Law of Liberty clearly is the 10 Commandments and to infer that it isn't is simply misguided. There is no ther conclusion one could come to in reading James 1 and 2 except by ignoring the facts. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Did anyone mention Romans 7:7 ?
7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
"Thou shalt not Covet"....of course it being, the 10 commandment. |
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