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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Are you keeping all the laws that God requires? |
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We've heard the idea put forth that though the old covenant has passed away, the 10 commandments remain in effect and Christians are liable to observe them all. As support for this, often quotes from the gospels are given in which Jesus lists some of the Big 10. See? The laws God commanded Moses to write down can be disregarded! They passed away at the cross! Jesus only mentioned the Big 10!
Here is a quote from Matt 5:
| Quote: | 21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. |
There, see? All the examples Jesus has given are from the Big 10! They different from the rest and will remain in effect after the rest pass away.
Jesus continues:
| Quote: | 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. |
Thou shalt not forswear yourself? I checked. That's not in the Big 10. Where did Jesus get this?
Numbers 30: | Quote: | | 2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. |
I checked the context. Nope. It's not a list of the Big 10. Know who said it? Moses - a sinful man! How odd that Jesus, the Son of God, is teaching the people the commandments of a sinful man.
Jesus continues: | Quote: |
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. |
I don't recall this being one of the Big 10 either.
Exodus 21: | Quote: |
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. |
What? Jesus is quoting from a law regarding disorderly conduct and incidental injury to pregnant women and unborn children?
Lev 24:
| Quote: | 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. |
A law regarding injuring others?
Deut 19:
| Quote: | 16If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. |
A law against framing someone for a crime they didn't commit?
I don't find any of these in the Big 10.
| Quote: | 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? . |
Love your neighbor? Where is that?
Leviticus 19:18
| Quote: | | Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. |
Jesus has not at all restricted His discussion here the 10 commandments. He has chosen several examples, from various places in the books of Moses, which Israel in His generation was in the habit of keeping only in their most lax sense. He is putting them in remembrance that under the law, they were liable to go the whole 9 yards - to keep these laws to their fullest extent.
Is the law a set of rules that man can live by? In Jesus' discussion of the law against murder, He says "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." This is in regard to the law against murder. Do you get it? If you have any dispute, anger, of controversy with someone, it is as bad as murder. Under the law of the old covenant, you are better off letting the other person have their way and walk all over you to avoid you being just as guilty as if you'd killed that person.
Likewise in His discussion of the "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" principle, He told those He was speaking to to essentially let others take from them anything they wished, allow them to abuse them, and not seek justice. Plainly, if anyone has actually put this into practice, he has likely died cold, naked, and homeless. But this is the standard Jesus sets.
Jesus was not letting Israel off easy by keeping just the Big 10. And it would have killed them to keep even those 10 to their fullest extent. Who can meet this standard? In the last verse of the chapter reaches His point.
| Quote: | | 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. |
If you're laboring to keep the law to please God, I hope you're seeing the extent to which it would have to be kept. You would have to be all powerful, all knowing and all-good. Perfect just as God is. Stop laboring and Jesus will give you rest. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Zathrus,
I suppose it's how one percieves it, isn't it?
What you call laborous, I find to be a joy.
| Quote: | Deut 19:
Quote:
16If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
A law against framing someone for a crime they didn't commit?
I don't find any of these in the Big 10. |
Thou shalt not bear false witness...
It's right after thou shalt not steal.
| Quote: | | Jesus was not letting Israel off easy by keeping just the Big 10. And it would have killed them to keep even those 10 to their fullest extent. |
That's because they didnt have the spirit of truth leading them. They chose to lean on their own understanding of the law.
It is good if you apply it with truth and sincerity. And you seek the wisdom written in it. But if your only doing the works for the works sake and so you can be found justified by it, then you've missed the whole point. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3190
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I had a thought today, Zathrus. I was wondering why the ark of the testimony was mentioned in revelation when it comes time to judge the dead.
This is just something to ponder;
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 ¶ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen **in his temple** the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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The time of the dead..
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
So the resurrection includes both the just and the unjust. And they will be judged according to the law.
And those who sin without the law perish.
Is it better to be judged or to perish?
Jerusalem was not living according to God's law. They made up their own law. It was through baptism that they they became dead to man's unrighteous law which led to sin and death, and were free to walk in the liberty of God's law which bring blessing and life.
1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If no one was keeping the law, then why would the dragon be persecuting the woman?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
there's that rest.. 
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 ¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I'm thinking I'd rather be judged than perish. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | It is good if you apply it with truth and sincerity. And you seek the wisdom written in it. But if your only doing the works for the works sake and so you can be found justified by it, then you've missed the whole point. |
Very wise words, Lone.
Me, I don't worry about the law. If I treat others right, I'll be fine. If I have God's Spirit in me, and He's leading me, I'll be allright.
And if I put my faith in Jesus as my savior, my salvation is assured, I am not on probation, God does not impute sin to me, He imputes righteousness to me. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: More laws to keep to have eternal life!!! |
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Here's another passage that I noticed. Thanks, Lone. You're the one who brought this to my attention.
Mark 10:
| Quote: | 17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]" |
Notice the question. What must I do to have eternal life?
Notice that before Jesus starts answering the question, He tells the man there is none good except God alone? Really, this is the answer to his question. But it's like the guy didn't even hear that! How many of us have heard it?
So Jesus begins listing commandments, and after having been told no one is good, he has the audacity to declare "I've kept all of those all my life!"
But to my point: Where is the commandment "Do not defraud" in the Big 10? I went back and checked. I didn't see it. Now if we say that Christians are only under the Big 10, we must admit there is no commandment from God telling us we can't commit fraud. I imagine there are probably a host of other less than ethical behaviors that the Big 10 don't cover. Would the teaching that the Big 10 only remain in effect also have us believe Christians are free to engage in those behaviors then?
Interesting. Where did Jesus get "Do not defraud"?
Oh here it is, in Lev 19:
| Quote: | | 13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. |
Again, Jesus did not restrict Himself to the Big 10. And Christians today who wish to teach that parts of the law of the old covenant remain in effect are in error when they delineate between the Big 10 and the rest. Jesus made no such distinction. Those who wished to obtain righteousness and salvation by the works of the law were obligated to do all of it.
Let's recognize that by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified, come to Jesus to receive eternal life, and walk in newness of life. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | I had a thought today, Zathrus. I was wondering why the ark of the testimony was mentioned in revelation when it comes time to judge the dead.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 ¶ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen **in his temple** the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. |
Thanks for bringing that up MoJo. I had seen that and have understood it to mean for a long time that the place where God's presence dwells is revealed to be His church. I'm sure that's part of it, but the location of the law probably is part of it also. I'll have to give that some thought. Revelation is clearly written to Jewish believers, or those very familiar with Judaism, so readers in the 1st century would have gotten the hint. It's much harder for me, a non-Jew, all these centuries later.
The question was posed in another thread in the 10 commandments forum, and when I get a chance I may post a response, but have you pondered the significance of the structure of the ark? Jesus is the mercy seat. And I believe the cherubim of glory in God's presence are the church in His presence. Where are they in relation to the tablets of the law? They are over it. It is under their feet. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3190
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | The question was posed in another thread in the 10 commandments forum, and when I get a chance I may post a response, but have you pondered the significance of the structure of the ark? Jesus is the mercy seat. And I believe the cherubim of glory in God's presence are the church in His presence. Where are they in relation to the tablets of the law? They are over it. It is under their feet. |
Yes, that's a good catch, Zathrus. So is the footstool under the feet, which is the earth.
Don't know why the big lettering. A gremlin.
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RND
Bear Cub
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | The question was posed in another thread in the 10 commandments forum, and when I get a chance I may post a response, but have you pondered the significance of the structure of the ark? Jesus is the mercy seat. And I believe the cherubim of glory in God's presence are the church in His presence. Where are they in relation to the tablets of the law? They are over it. It is under their feet. |
Isn't interesting to note then that while the Mercy Seat (representing Jesus Christ) covers the stone tables that make up the covenant, that those tables are on the *inside* of the Ark?
Do you suppose the Ark signifies our heart, with the law being on the inside?
Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. |
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JonMarie
Cobra
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 479
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: the law void? |
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| not according to (Matthew 5:17- Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.) KJV |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2725
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: the law void? |
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| JonMarie wrote: | | not according to (Matthew 5:17- Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.) KJV |
Please explain further.
For the benefit of others who may read this, how does that Bible verse (Matthew 5:17,18) effect the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath ? |
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james
Bear
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 658
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Concerning Matt 5:17-18 in which Christ said HEcame to fulfill the law. And that not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till ALL be fulfilled.
All WAS FULFILLED ON THE CROSS!!!!!! Hence John19:30 Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED." His sacrifice fulfilled ALL.
I emphasis Matthew 5:17 again and it says CHRIST CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW AND HE DID JUST THAT. ALL HAS BEEN FULFILLED, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE SAID IT IS FINISHED. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
I had a thought..oh oh..
If Love worketh NO ILL to his neighbour, and Love is the fulfilling of the law..
then if God was to send us to eternal damnation to fry for all eternity, would that be considered "ill" towards his neighbours..how does wrath and vengeance fulfill the law of Love?
hugs
lone |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | Concerning Matt 5:17-18 in which Christ said HEcame to fulfill the law. And that not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till ALL be fulfilled.
All WAS FULFILLED ON THE CROSS!!!!!! Hence John19:30 Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED." His sacrifice fulfilled ALL.
I emphasis Matthew 5:17 again and it says CHRIST CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW AND HE DID JUST THAT. ALL HAS BEEN FULFILLED, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE SAID IT IS FINISHED. |
What does Jesus say is ACTUALLY being finished in John 19:30? - is it that He is saying that the LAW and the Prophets are now finished and no longer have to be adhered to? - NO! That is deception. Jesus answers what is being finished in the couple verses earlier:
Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Jesus is saying what is being finished is the things necessary for the written scriptures to be made replete.
The word Fulfilled shouldn't be viewed as the removal of the former but rather the making replete of the former.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Yet people will tells us as soon as they read that verse exactly what Jesus doesn't want us to think. They will tell us that Jesus fulfilled everything therefore the law is destroyed. The word "fulfilled" does not give that indication. In fact, the very meaning conveys to me that because Jesus has come that the meaning behind the LAW and the PROPHETS carrys much more weight then it previously had in its partiallity as it is being now made more replete.
Strong's says the word means "to make replete". Here is what a English dictionary says about the word replete:
American Heritage Dictionary
1. Abundantly supplied; abounding: a stream replete with trout; an apartment replete with Empire furniture.
2. Filled to satiation; gorged.
None of those definitions would imply that something is to be removed or destroyed or abolished.
In fact that same word is used in the NT to describe the fishing nets being FULL. Full means to be satisfactorily filled. That would mean that before Jesus came we could not filled with the law to satisfaction! That is a very different view then what many try to preach about that verse today. But no wonder - satan doesn't want that verse to read such! The Law was ordained unto life:
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Paul |
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