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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
Location: WV
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 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Do the verses where Scripture condemns "immolation of children" count as Scripture that condemns abortions? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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No.
1. Abortion doesn't involve immolation of a child.
2. "Passing through the fire to Molech" (which is the verse I assume you're speaking of) was a reference to a religious rite that involved child prostitution.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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And
3. There is no scripture which says that a fetus is a child.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| P123 wrote: | | Probably a stronger one is the 'twins' argument. Although it doesn't rely directly on scripture, it is relevant. |
I am unfamiliar with this argument. Do enlighten me.
| Quote: | Another stronger one is probably the fact that abortions were widely practiced in antiquity, and yet the Bible makes no mention of them. If they were really so evil, then the Bible would have mentioned them, as its writers would have been aware of them. They must not have thought that they were bad.
Along those same lines, if God really thought that abortions were wrong, then He would have made sure that some scripture was included against them. Being omniscient, He would have seen that it was going to be a big issue in the future. |
This, I think, misunderstands the purpose of the Bible. It was not to give a list of do's and don't's (two apostraphes?).
With this line of thinking, one could say that God, being omniscient, would know that pornography would be a problem and address it via prophetic command. He did not, therefore pornography is not sin (that is more addressing the final argument you gave).
I think though that one could argue that the principles that are applicable to abortion are present. One could use the argument of Jeremiah being a person (I know you disagree with this), and that murder is wrong, and therefore God did address the issue.
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simul justus et peccator
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | P123 wrote: | | Probably a stronger one is the 'twins' argument. Although it doesn't rely directly on scripture, it is relevant. |
I am unfamiliar with this argument. Do enlighten me.
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Simple... With identical twins, what happens is that the egg is fertilized, and then it splits apart physically. Each of the parts becomes a person.
This creates a SERIOUS problem for the theory that ensoulment happens at conception, because now we have two people and only one soul.
Does each twin get a copy of the same soul? Do they both share the one soul? It's a real problem.
And of course, the problem doesn't stop with identical twins; you can have identical triplets, identical quadruplets, etc. and it just gets worse.
So the theory that ensoulment happens at conception has serious flaws, none of which are present in the theory that ensoulment happens at birth.
| sofyst wrote: |
| Quote: | Another stronger one is probably the fact that abortions were widely practiced in antiquity, and yet the Bible makes no mention of them. If they were really so evil, then the Bible would have mentioned them, as its writers would have been aware of them. They must not have thought that they were bad.
Along those same lines, if God really thought that abortions were wrong, then He would have made sure that some scripture was included against them. Being omniscient, He would have seen that it was going to be a big issue in the future. |
This, I think, misunderstands the purpose of the Bible. It was not to give a list of do's and don't's (two apostraphes?).
With this line of thinking, one could say that God, being omniscient, would know that pornography would be a problem and address it via prophetic command. He did not, therefore pornography is not sin (that is more addressing the final argument you gave).
I think though that one could argue that the principles that are applicable to abortion are present. One could use the argument of Jeremiah being a person (I know you disagree with this), and that murder is wrong, and therefore God did address the issue. |
I agree that you could extend my argument to pornography since it obviously existed during antiquity, but pornography is such a minor thing that it's understandable that they didn't waste any space in the Bible on it.
By contrast, think about abortion... Some people say that it is the murder of babies! And we know for a fact that abortions were practiced widely in antiquity. If abortion really is baby murder, then it is inconceivable that it was not mentioned EXPLICITLY in the Bible. The Jeremiah quote isn't NEARLY explicit or strong enough to account for the fact that the writers of the Bible lived in a time when abortions were practiced. If they thought that abortions were so evil, then they would have mentioned it explicitly.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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nobody important
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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but the bible is only part of the single deposit of faith.
there are other writings that explicitly mention abortion 1 in particular wrote by the 12 Apostles that predates the Christian Bible!
Its like me saying because your Cars Engine Manual dosnt explicitly mention a Sun Roof I dont believe it has one, But that is not the only manual you have.... you you say..."I also have other manuals on the Car one is a Manual on the Electrics which explicitly mentions the Sunroof" but I reject that manual because its not the engine manual. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | but the bible is only part of the single deposit of faith.
there are other writings that explicitly mention abortion 1 in particular wrote by the 12 Apostles that predates the Christian Bible! |
I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Please cite.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | And
3. There is no scripture which says that a fetus is a child. |
Jesus says so in Mark 13:
17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
This would indicate a woman who is pregnant & an infant breastfeeding.
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Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | And
3. There is no scripture which says that a fetus is a child. |
Jesus says so in Mark 13:
17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
This would indicate a woman who is pregnant & an infant breastfeeding. |
That's just a colloquialism. The point is that nowhere in the Bible does it say that fetuses have souls.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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P123, maybe back in bible times they just didn't call it abortion, maybe they just called it murder, & for murder they just wacked of your head!!  But I could be wrong!  Just kidding!! 
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Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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If abortian is totally ok with God. How do we explain God's plans for our lives? The way you guys write as if God is somewhere piddle paddleing his thumbs and just not concerned about our every day details that go on in our lifes. Every day he is directing our paths.
I love the storyof Joseph becouse of the simple fact that God guided his life to egypt, so that he would be able to provide food, for his brothers and father, so that the heritage and Jesus would be born to die and save an abundent of lives.
What kills me as if we need a specific scripture to tell us what is acceptable and not acceptable before God. Thats why God left the holy spirit, becouse if you are a christian, you have the holy spirit, he tells you and discerns what is right and wrong according to our God.
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations
This passage clearly points out that God has a plan for all of the fetus and they do have a soul. Humans are not animals, animals dont have souls. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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First, welcome to the boards Saibe 
Second, I'm gonna pull this thread slightly off track, but I want to ask a few questions...
| saibe wrote: | | If abortian is totally ok with God. How do we explain God's plans for our lives? The way you guys write as if God is somewhere piddle paddleing his thumbs and just not concerned about our every day details that go on in our lifes. Every day he is directing our paths. |
You think that God takes a daily, specific interest in the 6 billion people on the planet?
| saibe wrote: |
What kills me as if we need a specific scripture to tell us what is acceptable and not acceptable before God. Thats why God left the holy spirit, becouse if you are a christian, you have the holy spirit, he tells you and discerns what is right and wrong according to our God. |
So you see no value in the Bible then? If the holy spirit guides you, why do Christians need a reference book at all?
Does God only guide Christians?
| saibe wrote: |
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations
This passage clearly points out that God has a plan for all of the fetus and they do have a soul. Humans are not animals, animals dont have souls. |
If the holy spirit guides you, why are referencing a passage from the Bible? You just stated that there doesn't need to be a "Thou shalt not" passage, and then use one to prove a point, so I'm confused...
Lastly, I believe that passage was in specific reference to Jeremiah himself and not necessarily applicable to everyone generally...unless you consider yourself a prophet as well?
Jeremiah
1:1 The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah...
1:4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
1: 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Sounds to me like Jeremiah was giving his credentials and not an anti-abortion judgement...
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| saibe wrote: |
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations
This passage clearly points out that God has a plan for all of the fetus and they do have a soul. |
It does nothing of the sort. It is specifically talking about Jeremiah; it is not making any universal claims whatsoever about all human fetuses.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
You think that God takes a daily, specific interest in the 6 billion people on the planet? |
Pondering is making a good point here. I'd like to say something on a related note.
There is a definite contradiction in the belief that God is in control of each person's destiny and the belief in right and wrong.
If God controls your destiny, then you don't have any free will. If you don't have any free will, then it isn't your fault when you do something evil, and it's totally cruel for God to send you to hell for something which He guided you into.
You can't have it both ways; either God is the puppet master who controls us and our lives and therefore it's HIS fault (and not ours) when we do evil things, or we're in control of our own lives and all of this destiny / predestination / God is in charge stuff is wrong.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the welcome.
Ok guys I want to respond to your questions and comments.
to pondering: Yes I do think that God takes a daily, specific interest in the approx. 6 billion people on the planet?
I will show you many scriptures that prove this you may take them as you will.
Matthew 10:29-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[a]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
If God cares about a bird, how much more can he care for us, we are the ones that will share his with others salvation, not birds? If God knows how many hairs we have I think thats pretty personal.
Psalm 139 (please read this in its entirety, it is one of my favorites, and I did want to write too much.)
Psalm 139
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
contd. from verse 7
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Ponder, I think this passage can be argued with both of my points I have made.
*God cares about every detailed aspect of your life.
* God does not permit abortion, becouse he has planned certain things for your life. If you want to argue the point that these scriptures were for only David and Jeremiah, then you must argue that nothing in the bible applies to us.
moving on
I am sorry for the confusion thats why it is up to us to dive into the bible and see what God is really saying to us. I appreciate this question its good one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Now The word is God, (the word meaning the bible)
The holy spirit is comes after you have taken Jesus as your personal saivior. The holy spirit enables you to obey God, he prays for you, he directs you.
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you'"
Of course there is a purpose for the bible. The bible is sharper than double edge sword. Just becouse the holy spirit came doesnt not mean we dont need the bible, it's the oppisite, he came so we wont forget.
What I was saying is sometimes we dont need to debate whether, this is right or not just read his word. I just got a lil fustrated by the way people were talking here as if he hasnt given us words to live by.
P1234567890 & Ponder,
I get something diff. from that passage. I agree with you that God was giving him specific credentials and instructions, however listen how God is telling Jeremiah, if God has the capabilities to see him BEFORE he was formed, that leads me to the conclusion that God looks at all who are born BEFORE they are born, and plans there life. God is know respecter of persons, what he did for David Jeremiah and all the others he did does and is doing for us. Please read psalms 139
P1234567890
I think this is a great question, Ive wondered about it myself. Let me ask you a question. What if I(or someone asked me ) to jumb off the bridge. Could I go do it if I wanted to? yes you could. God has given you free will to do what you want. He gives us a choice to do what eva we want or follow him. Back to the brigde, if I decided to jump, it was in his plan. I chose to jump instead of following him.
When God led the children of Isreal into the red sea, and drowned phaero and his men, it was becouse God had hardened his heart. That could have been a test for phaero from God to see if he would follow God. But phaero did not surrender to God he continued to chase God'd chosen people.
sorry so long.
Be Blessed
You could look at Saul's life as well, he had a chance to repent, be he never did.
As a christian the devil is always coming at you so that you will not succeed in Gods plan, or get destracted. But we have the power to say no to evil.
31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. .
When you hear about evil things happening its the devil not God. When you see people killing all kinds of evil, satam has influenced them. But God said if we keep our minds on him he will keep us in perfect peace.
Sorry so long
Be Blessed |
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