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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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EXPERTS? You mean those who have an established belief and view all evidence and perform all study and research under the auspices of that preset belief? They are experts in evolutionary theory, but not in objectivity.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | EXPERTS? You mean those who have an established belief and view all evidence and perform all study and research under the auspices of that preset belief? They are experts in evolutionary theory, but not in objectivity. |
No, they're the scientific experts in WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.
That's ultimately what ALL of science is about: trying to understand the way the universe and nature work. Biologists were given the question: where did humans come from, and they were able to use objective science to figure it out all the way to hundreds of millions of years ago.
They really are objective. Their inferences and conclusions are based on rock-solid scientific evidence.
There are NO scientific arguments against macroevolution. In fact, the ONLY argument against macroevolution is a HUMAN interpretation of the Bible, and that interpretation could easily be wrong. As people here have said so often, with God, all things are possible.
Here is a REALLY important question for you:
Do you assert that it is beyond God's power to create a universe in which it is possible for both macroevolution and SOME REASONABLE INTERPRETATION of the Bible to be true at the same time?
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you assert that it is beyond God's power to create a universe in which it is possible for both macroevolution and SOME REASONABLE INTERPRETATION of the Bible to be true at the same time? |
I do not beleive that anything is beyond God's power, but I do assert that God is not the author of confusion. His word would not specify the special creation of man if indeed His creation was not unique, individual and devoid of man evolving from animals in clear contradiction to His Word.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | Do you assert that it is beyond God's power to create a universe in which it is possible for both macroevolution and SOME REASONABLE INTERPRETATION of the Bible to be true at the same time? |
I do not beleive that anything is beyond God's power, but I do assert that God is not the author of confusion. His word would not specify the special creation of man if indeed His creation was not unique, individual and devoid of man evolving from animals in clear contradiction to His Word. |
I wonder if it would be plausible to suppose he only wrote out the particulars of creating man because he knew his audience, man, would be most interested in knowing how man was created.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I think the whole creation account in Genesis was written in terms early man could understand, but there is no accounting, evolutionaryily, for the specificity of the creation of man seperate from plants, animals etc,
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I do not beleive that anything is beyond God's power, but I do assert that God is not the author of confusion. |
Exactly. But I am not saying that God is the author of confusion, but rather that sometimes He PURPOSEFULLY teaches lessons to His believers, and that those lessons aren't always in the form of parables.
For example, think of the Galileo episode. Christian leaders CLEARLY believed that the Earth was at the center of the universe, because this is what they interpreted the Bible to say. So they go and persecute anyone who says otherwise, regardless of how much scientific evidence they've got. But eventually the truth is discovered: science was right, and all of the self-righteous Catholic leaders who thought they KNEW what the Bible said were wrong; they were misinterpreting it.
I assert that God PURPOSEFULLY made it possible for them to make this mistake by intentionally making the scriptures about the Earth's position in the universe vague. The whole point was to teach everyone a lesson: don't be too sure about your interpretation of scripture... It is a glimpse into the mind of God, and no mortal should be so arrogant as to think that he can even begin to understand the mind of God.
The creation account was similarly made vague on purpose to re-teach EXACTLY the same lesson. Just look at how self-righteously some Christians are when it comes to interpreting the Bible. God is re-teaching the lesson of humility, because apparently it didn't stick the time He taught it with Galileo.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | The creation account was similarly made vague on purpose to re-teach EXACTLY the same lesson. Just look at how self-righteously some Christians are when it comes to interpreting the Bible. God is re-teaching the lesson of humility, because apparently it didn't stick the time He taught it with Galileo. |
What is it about the creation account that you specifically find vague?
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Exactly. But I am not saying that God is the author of confusion, but rather that sometimes He PURPOSEFULLY teaches lessons to His believers, and that those lessons aren't always in the form of parables.
For example, think of the Galileo episode. Christian leaders CLEARLY believed that the Earth was at the center of the universe, because this is what they interpreted the Bible to say. So they go and persecute anyone who says otherwise, regardless of how much scientific evidence they've got. But eventually the truth is discovered: science was right, and all of the self-righteous Catholic leaders who thought they KNEW what the Bible said were wrong; they were misinterpreting it.
I assert that God PURPOSEFULLY made it possible for them to make this mistake by intentionally making the scriptures about the Earth's position in the universe vague. The whole point was to teach everyone a lesson: don't be too sure about your interpretation of scripture... It is a glimpse into the mind of God, and no mortal should be so arrogant as to think that he can even begin to understand the mind of God.
The creation account was similarly made vague on purpose to re-teach EXACTLY the same lesson. Just look at how self-righteously some Christians are when it comes to interpreting the Bible. God is re-teaching the lesson of humility, because apparently it didn't stick the time He taught it with Galileo. |
P123... you contradict yourself. You say that you believe that God IS NOT the author of confusion, but then that He purposefully creates a confusing situation. This is so blatantly contradictory that I cannot understand how you could put it in writing.
You take the interpretation of men, and blame that on God. But you have failed to demonstrate in this whole Galileo scenario where scripture indicated that the earth was the center of the universe. They did not misinterpret anything, they simply advanced an egocentric position and falsely claimed that it was scriptural.
To assert that "God PURPOSEFULLY made it possible for them to make this mistake by intentionally making the scriptures about the Earth's position in the universe vague", is to assert that God authors confusion.
So what do you really think?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | P123... you contradict yourself. You say that you believe that God IS NOT the author of confusion, but then that He purposefully creates a confusing situation. This is so blatantly contradictory that I cannot understand how you could put it in writing.
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It's not confusion if it is a purposeful lesson to self-righteous men. It wasn't confusing to those like Galileo who were humble enough to realize that scientific observation trumps human interpretation of scriptures.
| RevJP wrote: |
You take the interpretation of men, and blame that on God. But you have failed to demonstrate in this whole Galileo scenario where scripture indicated that the earth was the center of the universe. They did not misinterpret anything, they simply advanced an egocentric position and falsely claimed that it was scriptural.
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The Bible says that the Earth does not move, but that the sun does. There are numerous quotes from scripture which the persecutors of Galileo would certainly have been aware of. Here are some of them:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/babinski/biblical_geocentrism.html
By the way, if everything in the Bible is true, does that include the following verse?
| Quote: | | "There was a great earthquake...and the stars of the sky fell...as if shaken from a tree." (Rev. 6:12,13) |
Literally true or not?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm having trouble reconciling the idea that God is not the author of confusion with the tower of Babel story. 
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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