Contridictions...

FFT · Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

I will grant that perhaps the Latin word also means "bearer of light" in addition to it's connotation as the morning star.

Unfortunately for your argument, "Helel" has no such inherent meaning and "Helel" was the word used in the original Hebrew. In the transition from Hebrew to Greek to Latin the original name was translated rather than being kept in its original state as names are usually treated.

You wouldn't call Adam "Virus," would you? "Virus" is the Latin word for man.

"Lucifer" is a mistranslation and a misapplication but it's hilarious to watch how hard people try to hold on to it seeing as it's the only thing close to a Biblical justification for the heretical doctrine of Satan's fall.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

SealedEternal · Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject:

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject:

what does this verse mean?

Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

God Bless
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

FFT · Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject:

Silver Surfer · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Contridictions...

tomcat34 · Not So Newbie Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 8

Dear Mr. Jason Clark, Lets get a few things straight. # 1: Lucifer :
Satan filled the king of Babylon with the ambition to have complete domination over the earth, even over God throne” (1Ch 29:23) and “the stars of God,” the kings of the line of David sitting on the throne at Mount Moriah (by extension, Zion). This “king,” that is, the dynasty of Babylon, ‘lifted himself up’ in his own heart and was in his own eyes and in the eyes of his admirers a “shining one,” a “son of the dawn.” (In some translations the Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is retained. It is, however, merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lel', “shining one.” Heh·lel' is not a name or a title but, rather, a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar.) (Isa 14:4-21) Since Babylon was a tool of Satan, its “king” reflected Satan’s own ambitious desire. Again, God came to the salvation of his people by restoring them to their land, until the real Seed of promise should come.—Ezr 1:1-6. So you are wrong if you think or was told that " Lucifer " was Satan. # 2 Eve ate the apple :
Who Said It Was an Apple?
The Hebrew word tap·pu'ach, commonly translated “apple,” appears a number of times in the Bible. But it is not used in describing “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” (Genesis 2:9, 17; 3:6) Where, then, did the tradition that the apple was the forbidden fruit come from?
According to Plants of the Bible, by H. N. Moldenke, this idea was “due, no doubt, to the influence of Medieval and Renaissance artists who so depicted it.” For example, about the famous painting The Garden of Paradise by Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640), now in the Hague Gallery, Moldenke observed: “The fruit on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the serpent coiling among its branches, seems definitely to be apples. This painting is probably one of those to which we owe the presently widely held misconception that the apple is a Bible plant.”
Thus, not from God’s Word, the Bible, but from the fanciful, yet misguided, imagination of artists and poets has come one of the most popular myths of Christendom. What was the fruit? The Bible simply does not say, for the vital point is not the fruit but man’s disobedience.—Romans 5:12. # 3 Angels do not have free will ?
Do They Have Personalities?
Angels, like humans, have feelings. After witnessing earth’s creation, we are told that the angels “joyfully cried out together,” even “shouting in applause.” (Job 38:7) The Bible also reveals that “joy arises among the angels of God over one sinner that repents.” (Luke 15:10) Certainly, no impersonal “power” could have experienced the immense joy described in those verses.
Angels also have limitations. Certain facts about Christ and the future were revealed to human prophets but not to angels. God’s Word tells us that it is “into these very things angels are desiring to peer.” (1 Peter 1:10-12) As to the exact date chosen by God for the Lord’s coming, Jesus said: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”—Matthew 24:36.
Then, too, the names of two angels, Michael and Gabriel, appear in the Bible. (Daniel 12:1; Luke 1:26) Does this not add to the evidence of their individuality? As individuals, they were not programmed, like a computer or a robot, to act in a certain way. Rather, angels are gifted with the power of reason and have the freedom to form personal moral decisions. Thus, as free moral agents, certain angels chose to rebel against God and became Satan and his demons.—Genesis 6:1-4; Jude 6; Revelation 12:7-9. If they had no free will they could not have rebel. # 4 Lucifer became Satan when he attempted to steal God's throne ? Refer back to # 1. Also :
Definition: The spirit creature who is the chief adversary of God and of all who worship the true God. The name Satan was given to him because of his becoming a resister of God. Satan is also known as the Devil, because he is the foremost slanderer of God. Satan is described as the original serpent, evidently because of his using a serpent in Eden to deceive Eve, and for this reason “serpent” came to signify “deceiver.” In the book of Revelation, the symbolism of a devouring dragon is also applied to Satan.

From where did Satan come?
All of God's works are perfect; he is not the author of unrighteousness; so he did not create anyone wicked. (Deut. 32:4; Ps. 5:4) The one who became Satan was originally a perfect spirit son of God. When saying that the Devil “did not stand fast in the truth,” Jesus indicated that at one time that one was “in the truth.” (John 8:44) But, as is true of all of God’s intelligent creatures, this spirit son was endowed with free will. He abused his freedom of choice, allowed feelings of self-importance to develop in his heart, began to crave worship that belonged only to God, and so enticed Adam and Eve to listen to him rather than obey God. Thus by his course of action he made himself Satan, which means “adversary.”—Jas. 1:14, 15; So Jason, in not understanding the Bible or getting wrong information from others I can see where you might think the Bible is just good stories to read. But you couldn't be further from the truth. Its not a story that some men made up.I just wanted to set you stright on your comments you made. thank you for your time. Bob

FFT · Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:12 am Post subject:

tomcat34 · Not So Newbie Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 8

Yes I do read the context and the Bible as a whole. How does 1 Chron.29:23,24,25 have to do with the debate about Lucifer. It seems that you have left the ball park much less the context of the scriptures.ai ask you why are we talking about King Solomon when we should be talking about if Lucifer is the name for Satan. Come back to earth. Also the Bible does not say that Eve ate the apple from the tree. I don't care what greek or hebrew word you want tp use. Here is some info on Isa. 14:9-12. Its basically the sme as before. I was not using King Soloman and his people as admirers as you think. I used this scripture to show that they sat on God's throne.
Isaiah 14:12-14 reads: “‘O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations! As for you, you have said in your heart, ‘To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.’”
The application of Isaiah 14:12-14 is not to Satan the Devil, but is to the ruling dynasty of Babylonian kings beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and ending with Nabonidus and Belshazzar. This dynasty, referred to in ÞIsa 14 Üverse 4 as the “king of Babylon,” exalted itself highly and shone brightly in the ancient world. Especially so did it desire to be superior to the line of kings that sat on the throne at Jerusalem. In Bible prophecy the kings of the royal line of David were likened to stars; and as these sat on the throne at Jerusalem called “God's throne,” they had a brilliance, a royal glory. So, by desiring to make the Israelite kings mere vassals and by finally dethroning them and thus setting himself up above these royal “stars of God,” Babylon’s king was saying in his heart that his ambition was to go up to the heavens of God, lift his pagan throne up above the symbolic “stars of God” and seat himself on the northerly mountain where Israelites met with their God. In this way Babylon’s king would appear to put himself up above the God of Israel, whom he thus defied, challenged. When Nebuchadnezzar dethroned the “stars of God” at Jerusalem and over turned “God's throne,” he may have appeared to himself and to the pagan world to have lifted himself heaven-high. (Compare Matthew 11:23.) So it was the “king of Babylon” who, by what he did to Zion or Jerusalem, had become the “shining one, son of the dawn.” But as ancient Babylon’s fall in 539 B.C.E. this ruling dynasty of Babylonian kings was dethroned, cut down. So rightly could Isaiah say of them: “How you have been cut down to the earth!”

FFT · Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: