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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am confused as to your position now, my sofysticated friend. Is God one person or three? Is it Himself or themselves?
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Depends upon how you are referring to Him/Them. If you are referring to them as a collective whole, then you can use the Scriptural terminology of 'Him'. If you are referring to them as separate persons, you can refer to them as 'Them'.
The Scriptures give this idea,
19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Notice that 'name' is singular and yet refers to three different persons. This is why we can refer to this being (the Trinity, God) by His name, Yahweh, or by the pronoun of 'Him', and yet we can likewise refer to Yahweh by the third person pronoun, Them.
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Is each Person indentical with their shared existence? If so, they must, out of logical necessity, be identical to one another.
Friend, I won't be online again til Monday. Have a great weekend.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I was reading our discussion in the other forum and wondering why in the world you were replying there and not here. Then I remembered that although I had formulated a response to your comment here, I had not written it down. My blondness is coming out...
So, let me address this.
| apocatastasis wrote: | Is each Person indentical with their shared existence? If so, they must, out of logical necessity, be identical to one another.
Friend, I won't be online again til Monday. Have a great weekend. |
I would not say that they are identical with their shared existence, per se. I am identical to my existence, in that if one were to define my existence, I would be the definition. God is the same way, although His 'existence' is not limited to one person. Yahweh's 'existence' consists of three different persons. Therefore, if one were to define Yahweh's existence, and do so apart from speaking of the person of Christ or the Spirit, they would be only giving part of Yahweh's existence.
I do believe however that you are somewhat equivocating on terms here. I am assuming that when you say 'existence' you are speaking of 'nature'. Am I correct?
You wanted me to define 'person' and 'being'. I will attempt to do so here.
A 'person' is an individual that acts or speaks or behaves differently than another individual.
A 'being' is a thing that lives. Humans are beings, rocks are not.
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yahweh's 'existence' consists of three different persons. Therefore, if one were to define Yahweh's existence, and do so apart from speaking of the person of Christ or the Spirit, they would be only giving part of Yahweh's existence. |
So you believe that each Person is one of three parts that add up to a whole?
| Quote: | | I do believe however that you are somewhat equivocating on terms here. I am assuming that when you say 'existence' you are speaking of 'nature'. Am I correct? |
I am only repeating the term that you brought to the table. You said that each Person of the Trinity has a shared existence. I'm trying to understand the ramifications of this. Are the Persons distinct from the existence that they share?
| Quote: | You wanted me to define 'person' and 'being'. I will attempt to do so here.
A 'person' is an individual that acts or speaks or behaves differently than another individual.
A 'being' is a thing that lives. Humans are beings, rocks are not. |
So God is a living thing comprised of three individual persons? I think I'm going to need you to further define what you mean by "a thing that lives." What do you mean by 'thing'?
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sofyst
Tiger
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So you believe that each Person is one of three parts that add up to a whole? |
I understand how you would think this given my wording. But no, each Person is not one of three parts. It is not as though Jesus is only a third of God, but wholly God.
You are then going to ask me to explain this. I cannot. It is mysterious. When you can define perfectly God, and understand Him completely, then I think you will get the answer to this question.
| Quote: | | I am only repeating the term that you brought to the table. You said that each Person of the Trinity has a shared existence. I'm trying to understand the ramifications of this. Are the Persons distinct from the existence that they share? |
No, that is silly. Who is distinct from their existence? If one was distinct from their existence, then they would not exist.
| Quote: | | So God is a living thing comprised of three individual persons? I think I'm going to need you to further define what you mean by "a thing that lives." What do you mean by 'thing'? |
I sometimes get tired of your antics of always asking me to define the simple. I normally do not use words that are foreign to the vulgar usage of them. And I am not as naive to assume you do not know what I mean when I say the simplistic.
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I understand how you would think this given my wording. But no, each Person is not one of three parts. It is not as though Jesus is only a third of God, but wholly God. |
Does each Person of the Trinity embody the whole of God? If so, how can they logically be distinguished from one another? Or are their distinguishing traits extraneous to deity?
| Quote: | | You are then going to ask me to explain this. I cannot. It is mysterious. When you can define perfectly God, and understand Him completely, then I think you will get the answer to this question. |
Indeed, God is mysterious, but is that any excuse to ascribe meaningless or logically inconsistent notions?
| Quote: | | No, that is silly. Who is distinct from their existence? If one was distinct from their existence, then they would not exist. |
Ok, so if each Person is indistinct from their shared existence (God), than there remains nothing to distinguish these Persons. This remains your major dilemma, as I see it.
| Quote: | | I sometimes get tired of your antics of always asking me to define the simple. I normally do not use words that are foreign to the vulgar usage of them. And I am not as naive to assume you do not know what I mean when I say the simplistic. |
Antics? Man, you're really asking for it, aren't you? Have it your way, my friend. 
So a being is a living thing. So our bodies, which are living things, are beings. Are the micro organism that make up our bodies not also living things? Aren't these micro organisms intrinsic to the being we call the human body? You see, I am trying to get you to be precise, as we are dealing with slippery categories. You could be using the terms 'being' and 'thing' in very loose ways without even realizing it.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Does each Person of the Trinity embody the whole of God? If so, how can they logically be distinguished from one another? Or are their distinguishing traits extraneous to deity? |
I do not know how they can logically be distinguished from each other, but that says nothing. I do not know how to logically explain time. But I do know how they can be Scripturally distinguished from each other. Would you care to address the Scripture?
| Quote: | | Indeed, God is mysterious, but is that any excuse to ascribe meaningless or logical inconsistent notions? |
I have never ascribed meaningless notions to God, only recognized Scriptural notions that are hard to understand. Likewise, you have yet to show how anything I have presented is logically inconsistent. So once again, I ask you to quit using that attempted insult unless you are willing to back it up.
| Quote: | | Ok, so if each Person is indistinct from their shared existence (God), than there remains nothing to distinguish these Persons. This remains your major dilemma, as I see it. |
Their characteristics, their roles, their behaviors. Plenty as I see it to distinguish them from each other.
| Quote: | | So a being is a living thing. So our bodies, being living things, are beings. |
For one that quotes 'logic' you do readily screw it up. Saying that a being is a living thing does not equate to saying that a living thing is a being. God is love, but this doesn't mean love is God.
Apoc, I want to address Scripture now. If we do not have a fundamental basis from which to start, we cannot attempt to resolve this apparent conflict that the Scriptures present with the Trinity. You see, I believe, as does the majority of Christians today and throughout History, that Jesus, the Spirit and the Father are all divine. But Christians likewise believe that there is but one God. The Trinity is simply an attempt to understand how this can be.
Therefore, if one was to attack the Christian explanation of this Scriptural assertion, and yet never believe in the first place that Jesus is God, or that God is one, then no progress would be had.
So, I am going to ask you a few questions.
Do you believe there is one God?
Do you believe Jesus is God?
Do you believe the Father is God?
Do you believe the Spirit is God?
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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I asked: | Quote: | | Does each Person of the Trinity embody the whole of God? If so, how can they logically be distinguished from one another? Or are their distinguishing traits extraneous to deity? |
sofyst replied: | Quote: | | I do not know how they can logically be distinguished from each other, but that says nothing. I do not know how to logically explain time. |
You would have done well to answer the last question.
If each Person embodies the whole of God, and if each Person is wholly God, then it is logically impossible for them to be distinct persons. The whole notion of co-equal Persons of the Trinity becomes logically incongruent for the simple reason that it contradicts the law of the excluded middle.
| Quote: | | But I do know how they can be Scripturally distinguished from each other. Would you care to address the Scripture? |
Sure, but guess what we'll have to appeal to in order to interpret Scripture? Logic!
Quote:
Indeed, God is mysterious, but is that any excuse to ascribe meaningless or logical inconsistent notions?
| Quote: | | I have never ascribed meaningless notions to God, only recognized Scriptural notions that are hard to understand. Likewise, you have yet to show how anything I have presented is logically inconsistent. So once again, I ask you to quit using that attempted insult unless you are willing to back it up. |
Attempted insult? You're being rather touchy today.
I wrote:
| Quote: | | Ok, so if each Person is indistinct from their shared existence (God), than there remains nothing to distinguish these Persons. This remains your major dilemma, as I see it. |
sofyst responded: | Quote: | | Their characteristics, their roles, their behaviors. Plenty as I see it to distinguish them from each other. |
You are missing my point. Logically speaking, there cannot be distinctive characteristics between the Persons of the Trinity given that they are each in the whole God, unless of course these Persons are each more than God. Now stop speaking as though I haven't made an argument and address it, my friend.
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So a being is a living thing. So our bodies, being living things, are beings.
| Quote: | | For one that quotes 'logic' you do readily screw it up. Saying that a being is a living thing does not equate to saying that a living thing is a being. God is love, but this doesn't mean love is God. |
So a being is more than simply a "living thing"? By all means, give me a a more thorough definition of this term. Do you see why I've been asking you to get more specific?
| Quote: | Apoc, I want to address Scripture now. If we do not have a fundamental basis from which to start, we cannot attempt to resolve this apparent conflict that the Scriptures present with the Trinity. You see, I believe, as does the majority of Christians today and throughout History, that Jesus, the Spirit and the Father are all divine. But Christians likewise believe that there is but one God. The Trinity is simply an attempt to understand how this can be.
Therefore, if one was to attack the Christian explanation of this Scriptural assertion, and yet never believe in the first place that Jesus is God, or that God is one, then no progress would be had.
So, I am going to ask you a few questions.
Do you believe there is one God?
Do you believe Jesus is God?
Do you believe the Father is God?
Do you believe the Spirit is God? |
Yes, yes, yes and yes. The Father and the Son are both the Holy Spirit we call God, the former being the manifestation of the latter.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If each Person embodies the whole of God, and if each Person is wholly God, then it is logically impossible for them to be distinct persons. The whole notion of co-equal Persons of the Trinity becomes logically incongruent for the simple reason that it contradicts the law of the excluded middle. |
Not necessarily. Again, we can always go back to what we know, that being humanity. I am fully human, you are fully human. Yet it is possible to distinguish between the two.
I think here there may be a slight change of words being used. To my knowledge, no Trinitarian would claim that Jesus is wholly God, but rather that He is fully God. Just as I am fully human.
| Quote: | | Sure, but guess what we'll have to appeal to in order to interpret Scripture? Logic! |
Does not logic tell us that a being cannot be fully human and fully divine at the same time given that what is divine is not human? We cannot always plead with logic for answers, sometimes, we must accept that we just cannot know.
| Quote: | | Attempted insult? You're being rather touchy today. |
I'm p.m.s.'ing.
| Quote: | | You are missing my point. Logically speaking, there cannot be distinctive characteristics between the Persons of the Trinity given that they are each in the whole God, unless of course these Persons are each more than God. Now stop speaking as though I haven't made an argument and address it, my friend. |
Again, who said 'whole'?
| Quote: | | Yes, yes, yes and yes. The Father and the Son are both the Holy Spirit we call God, the former being the manifestation of the latter. |
Next question, is the Father and the Son both the same person?
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think here there may be a slight change of words being used. To my knowledge, no Trinitarian would claim that Jesus is wholly God, but rather that He is fully God. Just as I am fully human. |
So I ask yet again, is each Person of the Trinity more than God? That is to say, each posseses traits that are extraneous to deity?
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Does not logic tell us that a being cannot be fully human and fully divine at the same time given that what is divine is not human? |
Logic only tells us this if man and God are mutually exclusive concepts.
| Quote: | | Next question, is the Father and the Son both the same person? |
Honestly, I am not comfortable categorizing God as a person. He is personal and He reveals Himself us such, but I'm not about to say that God is essentially a person.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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sofyst
Tiger
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Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So I ask yet again, is each Person of the Trinity more than God? That is to say, each posseses traits that are extraneous to deity? |
One does, yes. It is called the Incarnation.
| Quote: | | Logic only tells us this if man and God are mutually exclusive concepts. |
Does not simple logic teach us that a cannot be a and not-a at the same time? How on earth could God be God and not-God (human) at the same time?
| Quote: | | Honestly, I am not comfortable categorizing God as a person. He is personal and He reveals Himself us such, but I'm not about to say that God is essentially a person. |
Why not? Here then you must define 'person'. Here I think you are using fuzzy wording. That which is personal is a person. If it is not a person, it is impersonal.
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Only one (the Son) is more than God? What then distinguishes the other two?
So if the Son is more than God, His existence cannot be reduced to the shared existence between the three. You are opening up a can of worms for yourself, old friend.
| Quote: | | Does not simple logic teach us that a cannot be a and not-a at the same time? How on earth could God be God and not-God (human) at the same time? |
Again, this is a matter of one's definitional framework. Given that God and man are mutually exclusive, it is logically impossible for one to be 100% God and 100% human for the same reason that it is logically impossible for some one to be 100% dog and 100% cat.
| Quote: | | Why not? Here then you must define 'person'. Here I think you are using fuzzy wording. That which is personal is a person. If it is not a person, it is impersonal. |
I'm using your definition: "A 'person' is an individual that acts or speaks or behaves differently than another individual."
God, being infinite, transcends such a category. He reveals Himself in a personal manner, but I make no claim as to His essence.
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sofyst
Tiger
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Only one (the Son) is more than God? What then distinguishes the other two?
So if the Son is more than God, His existence cannot be reduced to the shared existence between the three. You are opening up a can of worms for yourself, old friend. |
He is only more than God in that He has a nature that is different than God's. What distinguishes the other two is their personalities and their roles, as I have said before.
His existence can be reduced to the shared existence between the three in that He still possesses the nature that is divine.
| Quote: | | Again, this is a matter of one's definitional framework. Given that God and man are mutually exclusive, it is logically impossible for one to be 100% God and 100% human for the same reason that it is logically impossible for some one to be 100% dog and 100% cat. |
So are you disagreeing with the Incarnational doctrine as well? The typical Christian belief is that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Do you disagree with this?
| Quote: | I'm using your definition: "A 'person' is an individual that acts or speaks or behaves differently than another individual."
God, being infinite, transcends such a category. He reveals Himself in a personal manner, but I make no claim as to His essence. |
So God is not an individual that acts or speaks or behaves differently than another individual (let us say a human)??
He may be infinite, and He may transcend all humans, but this doesn't mean we can say that He acts or speaks or behaves differently than Humans do. In fact, it speaks vehemently for the notion that He does...
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He is only more than God in that He has a nature that is different than God's. What distinguishes the other two is their personalities and their roles, as I have said before. |
Hang on, now. Do either the Father of the Spirit possess traits that are extraneous to God? If not, there can be no logical distinction between the two.
| Quote: | | His existence can be reduced to the shared existence between the three in that He still possesses the nature that is divine. |
If the Son is more than God than He cannot be reduced to the shared existence which is God. This raises an interesting dilemma for you, sofyst.
| Quote: | | So are you disagreeing with the Incarnational doctrine as well? |
No, I am disagreeing with your conception of the incarnation.
| Quote: | | The typical Christian belief is that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Do you disagree with this? |
I've already expressed my understanding of the incarnation: God the Father Spirit manifests Himself as a man.
| Quote: | | So God is not an individual that acts or speaks or behaves differently than another individual (let us say a human)?? |
God, as infinite Being, is not an individual. Individuals are finite by definition.
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