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theseldomscene
Banned

Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: 3.3 ...

http://portal.tds.net/news.php?story=22467 http://portal.tds.net/news.php?story=22521

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:18 am Post subject:

If America didn't mess around in the internal politics of South America so much, then stuff like this wouldn't happen. I assert that America set the stage for Chavez to happen. _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Blaise Pascal "...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..." -Steven Weinberg "I would bless my children with your destruction instead." -Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:57 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

If America didn't mess around in the internal politics of South America so much, then stuff like this wouldn't happen. I assert that America set the stage for Chavez to happen.

Are we also responsible for the problems in Mexico... Brazil... Peru.. Chile... the entire continent... Hemisphere... world.

I suppose the aids empidemic in sub-Sahara Africa is our fault too? Rolling Eyes

Chavez is a psycopathic idiot who needs to be put down more than that Kentucky Derby horse did... he is nothing more than a danger to himself.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:24 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Are we also responsible for the problems in Mexico... Brazil... Peru.. Chile... the entire continent... Hemisphere... world.

Partly. America is an elephant in a very crowded room; basically no matter how it moves, it's going to hurt someone.

The U.S. has a long and distinguished history of messing around in the internal affairs of other countries, and this is especially true in Latin America. Chile is a classic example. You guys overthrew a DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED leader there simply because he was a little too far left for your tastes.

I realize that you want to believe that your country is perfect and that it never does anything wrong on the international stage, but the only way you can believe that is by willfully ignoring the history books.

Trinity1 wrote:

I suppose the aids empidemic in sub-Sahara Africa is our fault too? Rolling Eyes

Again, partly. Bush closed down the U.S.-sponsored family planning clinics in Africa because abortions were being performed in some of them. It just so happens that their PRIMARY function was AIDS education, so when you guys closed them down, you threw the baby out with the bath water. Since they were pretty much the ONLY place where AIDS education was happening, the effect of closing them down was that AIDS spread like wildfire.

I know a little bit about this because a close family friend is an AIDS expert who worked extensively in Africa; she's seen it all and explained it all to me.

You can take some solace in the fact that the former South African president (I forget his name) was much worse than Bush, though, and more than anyone else alive he helped the spread of AIDS by having a policy of denying that HIV causes it, and then doing nothing about it during the most critical time of its spread.

Trinity1 wrote:

Chavez is a psycopathic idiot who needs to be put down more than that Kentucky Derby horse did... he is nothing more than a danger to himself.

I happen to agree that Chavez is an idiot, but that's not the point. He's an idiot who was enabled by America. Part of the problem is that when Chavez goes on rants about how America has been oppressing and manipulating South America for the past hundred years, he's at least partly telling the truth! If those were all lies, then he wouldn't get nearly as much traction with the South American people.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

theseldomscene
Banned

Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:47 am Post subject:

[quote="Trinity1.[/quote]

Quote:

Are we also responsible for the problems in Mexico... Brazil... Peru.. Chile... the entire continent... Hemisphere... world.

that is a silly arguement tri...and you make yourself responsible for iraq...to make them free, democratic and prosperous(those were your babbling trying to defend the murder that is the iraq war...those were your reason given out of your own mouth)...but deny that same responsibilty in your own back yard...

Quote:

I suppose the aids empidemic in sub-Sahara Africa is our fault too? Rolling Eyes

what is this stupidity?.....

Quote:

Chavez is a psycopathic idiot who needs to be put down more than that Kentucky Derby horse did... he is nothing more than a danger to himself.

you'll eat those words...even if hugo dies tomorrow...he has already set in motion something that will burn the u.s....

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:46 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Are we also responsible for the problems in Mexico... Brazil... Peru.. Chile... the entire continent... Hemisphere... world.

Partly. America is an elephant in a very crowded room; basically no matter how it moves, it's going to hurt someone.
The U.S. has a long and distinguished history of messing around in the internal affairs of other countries, and this is especially true in Latin America. Chile is a classic example. You guys overthrew a DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED leader there simply because he was a little too far left for your tastes.
I realize that you want to believe that your country is perfect and that it never does anything wrong on the international stage, but the only way you can believe that is by willfully ignoring the history books.

Wrong P. When we have tried to mind our own business... 1916... 1940... the world was knocking on our door to help out when we wanted to be left alone. Now, when we are involved, leading... the only thing we get is grief for not minding our own business. Confused or disgusted

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

I suppose the aids epidemic in sub-Sahara Africa is our fault too? Rolling Eyes

Again, partly. Bush closed down the U.S.-sponsored family planning clinics in Africa because abortions were being performed in some of them. It just so happens that their PRIMARY function was AIDS education, so when you guys closed them down, you threw the baby out with the bath water. Since they were pretty much the ONLY place where AIDS education was happening, the effect of closing them down was that AIDS spread like wildfire.
I know a little bit about this because a close family friend is an AIDS expert who worked extensively in Africa; she's seen it all and explained it all to me.
You can take some solace in the fact that the former South African president (I forget his name) was much worse than Bush, though, and more than anyone else alive he helped the spread of AIDS by having a policy of denying that HIV causes it, and then doing nothing about it during the most critical time of its spread.

OK... let me get this right.

Bush triples the amount of money spent on Africa. and has also TRIPLED the amount spent to combat the aids epidemic. An epidemic that the United States neither started, furthers, or encourages.... but it is our fault?

I'm not sure how the math works up there where you are at... but to me... when the problem isn't our fault at all... and we spend exponentially more than any other country... or other countries in the world combined... and you want to blame us... that takes quite a bit of nerve.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:

theseldomscene wrote:

Trinity wrote:

I suppose the aids empidemic in sub-Sahara Africa is our fault too? Rolling Eyes

what is this stupidity?.....

Ask P... he seems to think it is our fault... or we are at least not doing enough.

Quote:

Chavez is a psycopathic idiot who needs to be put down more than that Kentucky Derby horse did... he is nothing more than a danger to himself.

you'll eat those words...even if hugo dies tomorrow...he has already set in motion something that will burn the u.s....

which is what?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Pondering
King of the Jungle

Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1509

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

The U.S. has a long and distinguished history of messing around in the internal affairs of other countries, and this is especially true in Latin America. Chile is a classic example. You guys overthrew a DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED leader …

I don’t see the point? Palestine has a democratically elected government. Iran (in theory) has a democratically elected government. Just because you use a democratic model doesn’t make you good…it also has to do with concepts of liberty, equality, fraternity Wink

P1234567890 wrote:

I realize that you want to believe that your country is perfect and that it never does anything wrong on the international stage, but the only way you can believe that is by willfully ignoring the history books.

Actually, I don’t. We have tons of faults. I do think that we’re better than 90% of the other options out there. There are social democracies (Switzerland, Scandinavian region, NZ, Holland) that do a lot of things a lot better than us…but they are not world leaders. When we do lead, things generally turn out better for everyone…and history does show that.

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

I suppose the aids empidemic in sub-Sahara Africa is our fault too? Rolling Eyes

Again, partly. Bush closed down the U.S.-sponsored family planning clinics in Africa ….

How long did we run those clinics? How many sub-saharan countries had personnel educated by those centers? Isn’t there a point at which you’ve “taught the man to fish” and no longer have to give him the fish?

P1234567890 wrote:

Part of the problem is that when Chavez goes on rants about how America has been oppressing and manipulating South America for the past hundred years, he's at least partly telling the truth! ….

Hmmm…partly agree. However, he also has learned from Mideast friends that if you focus on an outside enemy, people don’t look internally to find someone to blame.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject:

Pondering wrote:

The point is that America is very public in its vociferations about spreading democracy, but when it comes down to it, the U.S. only supports CERTAIN democracies. If the democracy ends up electing the wrong people, then a dictatorship is better.

I happen to agree that at dictatorship in Palestine might be better than what they've got, and I might even agree that this was also the case in Chile... But that's not the point. The point is that there's a reason why South America doesn't trust the U.S., and puppeteers like Chavez know EXACTLY how to exploit that distrust.

Pondering wrote:

Actually, I don’t. We have tons of faults. I do think that we’re better than 90% of the other options out there.

This comment was actually directed at Trinity; with him, Bush can do no wrong and is as honest as an Eagle Scout. This may surprise you, but I happen to AGREE that your country is better than 90% of the other options out there. It may not seem like it, but I'm a big fan of America. I'd just like it to be even better, that's all.

Pondering wrote:

There are social democracies (Switzerland, Scandinavian region, NZ, Holland) that do a lot of things a lot better than us…but they are not world leaders. When we do lead, things generally turn out better for everyone…and history does show that.

Agreed up to the end of the Korean war, but since then you guys have been dropping the ball.

Pondering wrote:

Hmmm…partly agree. However, he also has learned from Mideast friends that if you focus on an outside enemy, people don’t look internally to find someone to blame.

You don't have to go to the Mideast to learn that lesson; it's standard political operating procedure. Remember that Bush's approval numbers on Sept. 10th were in the toilet and then a couple of days later they were near 100%, despite the fact that he did nothing in between to deserve that jump; it was a purely external effect.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Agreed up to the end of the Korean war, but since then you guys have been dropping the ball.

I'm sure...
A few hundred thousands Kurds would disagree with you.
A few million Afghani's would disagree with you.
A few hundred thousand Kuwaiti's would disagee with you.
A few million Panamanians would disagree with you.
Even those folks sitting out on the Island of Grenada would also disagree.
For being a sharp fella P... you have a very selective memory.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Agreed up to the end of the Korean war, but since then you guys have been dropping the ball.

I'll give you the Kurds and the Kuwaitis. The other ones are dubious.

Let's see how objective you can be: can you name some countries and people who would agree with me?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Agreed up to the end of the Korean war, but since then you guys have been dropping the ball.

I'll give you the Kurds and the Kuwaitis. The other ones are dubious.

Afghani's living under the Taliban and now are not is dubious?
Panamanians that had their election stolen from them by Noriega were not thankful... sorry... I was there... they were thankful.
Grenada... OK... they were being controlled by a bunch of Cubans... and now have their Island back... I haven't heard of any complaints. But… I might be wrong.

Quote:

Let's see how objective you can be: can you name some countries and people who would agree with me?

Sure... the Vietnamese are prolly pretty pissed because we pulled out and allowed the North to waltz in there and kill a few million of them. -k-

Ahmmmmm... how about the Libyans. I'm sure they aren't very fond of our meddling....

The French... are prolly pissed because we put them back in charge of their own country...

Russians prolly don't like us very much. After all, they no longer suck the life out of those satellite countries.

I'm sure I'm leaving quite a few folks out... but aforementioned aren't none to chummy with us.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Afghani's living under the Taliban and now are not is dubious?

As I understand things, the life of the average Afghani is only the slightest bit better now than it was prior to the invasion. This is partly due to the fact that huge parts of the country still aren't under control, and there's a civil war going on there which is only slightly more benign than the one going on in Iraq.

And why is this happening? Because America didn't commit enough troops to Afghanistan, and instead sent them to Iraq, where you guys also didn't commit enough troops.

So to answer your question, yes, it's dubious.

Trinity1 wrote:

Panamanians that had their election stolen from them by Noriega were not thankful... sorry... I was there... they were thankful.

Let's not forget whose payroll Noriega was on in the first place... Panama is just another example of an American puppet getting out of line and having to be smacked down. This is the theme of American foreign policy during the last 50 years. Can you think of any other times when this happened? So again, dubious.

Trinity1 wrote:

Grenada... OK... they were being controlled by a bunch of Cubans... and now have their Island back... I haven't heard of any complaints. But… I might be wrong.

What the heck; I'm feeling generous and actually don't know that much about Grenada, so I'll give you that one.

Trinity1 wrote:

Quote:

Let's see how objective you can be: can you name some countries and people who would agree with me?

Sure... the Vietnamese are prolly pretty pissed because we pulled out and allowed the North to waltz in there and kill a few million of them. -k-

...They're also probably slightly unhappy about the way in which America sprayed the entire country with agent orange and now something like 30% of the population has visible birth defects...

Trinity1 wrote:

Ahmmmmm... how about the Libyans. I'm sure they aren't very fond of our meddling....

The French... are prolly pissed because we put them back in charge of their own country...

Russians prolly don't like us very much. After all, they no longer suck the life out of those satellite countries.

I'm sure I'm leaving quite a few folks out... but aforementioned aren't none to chummy with us.

Well, let me give you a hand. I bet that the average Iraqi isn't too happy with you guys right now because of your 'meddling' in their affairs.

Chileans totally hate you. So do Cubans, Venezuelans, and the people of every other south American country without exception, all because of your meddling in their affairs.

Greeks hate you a lot for the same reason.

Serbians hate you (although this is a bad example because in this case I think that you guys did the right thing).

And then there's every single Middle-Eastern country; they hate you not so much for your meddling directly in their affairs, but for supporting Israel in its many wars with them (where it totally kicked their butts and humiliated them), thereby indirectly meddling in their affairs.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Oh well, at least you guys haven't messed with Canada lately, or else we'd have to invade you again and burn down the White House like we did in 1812. Wink

_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Oh well, at least you guys haven't messed with Canada lately, or else we'd have to invade you again and burn down the White House like we did in 1812. Wink

My understanding is/was that it was the Brits that did this... you all weren't even a country yet... but hey.. you want a miliary victory... fine. Laughing

Remember though what happended in 1813 at the Battle of York. Wink

_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:25 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Oh well, at least you guys haven't messed with Canada lately, or else we'd have to invade you again and burn down the White House like we did in 1812. Wink

My understanding is/was that it was the Brits that did this... you all weren't even a country yet... but hey.. you want a miliary victory... fine. Laughing

Remember though what happended in 1813 at the Battle of York. Wink

If you call that a victory...

I'll take the burning of Washington over that squabble any day.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

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