Sinful Nature

Phynux · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:49 am Post subject: Sinful Nature

Hi!

Recently I just had a discussion with non-Christian friend, and he questioned me about one of the most fundamental teaching in Christiany.
Because Adam has sinned before God, Adam has broken the perfect image of God. As a result, we're all human, as descendants of Adam and Eve, are born imperfect. That's so called the sinful nature of human. We understand and agree till this part.
But, my friend then pointed out Noah. Indirectly, Bible says that we are descendants of Noah also since, remember, after God poured the great flood upon earth, only Noah and his family survived. However, Bible also says that Noah was "a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God" (Gen 6:9). Then why did God not erase the sinful nature of human after the great flood due to Noah.
Well... I tried to assure my friend that because Noah himself was a descendat of Adam, thus he himself still possessed that sinful nature. But my friend insisted that Bible never says anything about Noah's sin, thus he remained perfect and blameless till the end.
How is your opinion? Can somebody have any idea?

Van · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:57 am Post subject: Sinful Nature

Paul says all have sinned, which would include Noah, his sons and their wives. (Romans 5:12 and Romans 3:211-23) I think our "sinful nature" is our corrupted flesh. I think once we are converted, becoming a new creature our spirit is not sinful in nature, but chooses to sin due to fleshly desires. Our battle is to walk with Christ, to choose the will of God and to walk away from our fleshly desires that our sinful.

leecappella · Hamster Joined: 22 Nov 2002 Posts: 89

Phynux:

Noah was considered a righteous man due his faith in God. When we accept God/Christ into our lives as Lord, we are seen as righteous in God's eyes. It's our spirit that has been born again, not our flesh. That is why there is a war between the spirit and the flesh. It is our spirit that God looks at. He already knows that we are imperfect and will err from time to time. To be righteous is to be seen right in God's eyes and we are seen as such due to the placing of our faith in Christ alone, not our ability to be without sin. We have no such ability nor did Noah.

[This message has been edited by leecappella (edited 12-18-2002).]

Phynux · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 7:02 am Post subject: Sinful Nature

Hi!

Thanks for the fast response. In fact, I have already said to my friend more or less the same thing. Thus so far, we share the same view toward the issue. But, that's not all. Our discussion is still going on.
Now, assuming that we're right, that our sinful nature comes from the flesh and we can get rid of it once we repent and believe in Jesus (meaning that we're spiritually reborn), then my friend argued how 'bout those people who never know Gospel at all. Those are including infants who died, people who never get a chance to know Gospel (perhaps because they're living in a communist country) and so on.
Indeed there's one passage in the Bible (I forget where it is exactly though), saying that for those people who never knows Gospel before, not because of their fault, they're going to be judged differently according to God's own judgement. But my friend replied than there're a lot of people in the world who indeed know Gospel, they're benevolent, genereous, and kind, yet they're not Christian. They believe Jesus did exist as a historical figure, but not as their personal saviour. Remember, that not all atheist are bad guys. And, one of them is my friend.
We reflected the story of the 2 robbers who were crucified together with Jesus. One of them repented at the final moment of his life and therefore he was saved although he had done evildoing during his life. If God does save such kind of people, but He punishes those people who do benevolence during their lives yet not Christian... well... it sounds unfair, doesn't it?
I fully understand that our Christian teaching says that only by faith and believing in Jesus we can be saved, not by doing benevolence. Yet if we think along the scenario above, it seems that God has other plan also to save those people. How?

Phynux · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:01 am Post subject: Sinful Nature

Thanks for enlightening me more. So the conclusion is, as believer, we are already being saved. Thus our job is to spread the good news and for the rest it's up to God to judge.

To Ian, I don't think it's an arbitrary act of God. In the case of Noah, He chose to save Noah because Noah and his family was the only righteous people at that time. Later again God chose Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David and all the prophets to carry God's plan. Even in the New Testament, Jesus chose the 12 Disciples, and some years later He Himself chose Paul (or Saul at that time) particularly. In fact, I believe God still chooses someone to be His servant. Well... perhaps He will choose you and me also... who knows.
I think we should always remember that our God is the alpha and omega God, meaning that He knows the past and the future. That's why God doesn't just arbitrarily choose someone. He has plan. For example, I found it amazing when I read Jesus family tree in the 1st chapter of Matthew gospel. God had planned everything even from Abraham's time!!
Indeed there are some special cases which someone was lifted directly from earth, for example Elijah. It may be the case for Moses also. Although it's said that he died, but nobody ever found his grave (Deuteronomy 34). I'm not sure about Enoch. So far my Bible discussion group never discuss about this part of Bible. For all these guys, well... like I said, they're special. May be it's a such kind of reward for them from God (though it doesn't mean that other prophets are less important than them).

But, speaking 'bout past and future... just now some thought sparked in my mind. If indeed God knows the future, He should have known that human would fall for sin. Yet He still created human. If He knows that human will fall for sin, yet He still creates him/her, it means that He creates human to fall for sin, which sounds absurd.
Well... this just my wild thought, but it may become a potential loophole for non-Christian to attack our belief. How do you guys think?

Van · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:33 pm Post subject: Sinful Nature

Since God knew of Christ before the foundations of the world (which means before Adam was created)(1Peter 1:20) it is clear that God knew that mankind would sin.

We are the clay, and God is the potter. If he makes some of us for common use and then to be tossed into the fire, it is God's choice.(Romans 9:16-24) We can choose to glorify God which is the purpose of our creation, or we can run amuck. (Isaiah 43:7) God will deal justly with all those who never had a real opportunity to turn from a self directed life and put their trust and reliance on God.

Yes, you can make the argument that it would have been better if God had not created mankind and had not given us the opportunity to place our faith in God. But God, being God, does what He does and we, having a choice, can rebel and grumble or we can do our best with the time we are given to serve Christ, our Lord and Savior.

Van · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:16 pm Post subject: Sinful Nature

First, there are no atheists that are good guys. No Christians either. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God is Holy and our sin has caused a separation (Isaiah 59:2)from God. We cannot work our way across that separation.

When we die, we face either justice or mercy.
Either separation from God for eternity or fellowship with God for eternity. All those who do not obtain mercy we be separated from God, but since punishment is based on actions (thoughts and deeds) then innocents will not face punishment for their non-deeds for God is just.

Do you know the story of the Wayward Son? You can find it in Luke 15:11-32. Think about the other brother, the one who although he lived in the house of his Father, did not share in his Father's capacity to forgive. When you say, that is not fair, you are saying you believe in works and not forgiveness.

Each day we are to pray about forgiveness and take joy in it. Our job is to take the gospel to the ends of the earth, and do not worry about how the gospel will condemn those that reject Christ - they are condemned already.

Ian Rankin · Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:35 pm Post subject: Sinful Nature

Phynux
You mention Noah and his family being saved by God when he destroyed everybody else and God's decision being because he found Noah righteous.
The previous chapter mentions Enoch as a man who walked wih God and was taken by God. This is generally understood as being translated with seeing death.
There is also Elijah who was translated without dying.2Kings2:1-11
Were these arbitrary acts of God?