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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: If all Christians have the same Bible... |
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From my blog:
Scripture says there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5). This passage emphasizes the unity that should exist in the Body of Christ as we are indwelt by “one Spirit” (verse 4). In verse 3, Paul makes an appeal to humility, meekness, patience, and love—all which are necessary to preserve unity. According to 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God (verse 11), which He reveals (verse 10) and teaches (verse 13) to those whom He indwells. This activity of the Holy Spirit is called illumination.
In a perfect world, every believer would dutifully study the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15) in prayerful dependence upon the Holy Spirit’s illumination. Alas, this is not a perfect world. Not everyone who possesses the Holy Spirit actually listens to the Holy Spirit. There are Christians who grieve Him (Ephesians 4:30). Ask any educator: even the best classroom teacher has his share of wayward students who seem to resist learning, no matter what the teacher does. So, one reason that different people have different interpretations of the Bible is simply that some do not listen to the Teacher. Here are some other reasons for the wide divergence of beliefs among those who teach the Bible:
1. Unbelief. The fact is that many who claim to be Christians have never been born again. They wear the label of “Christian,” but there has been no true change of heart. Many presume to teach the Bible who do not even believe the Bible to be true. They claim to speak for God yet live in a state of unbelief. Most false interpretations of the Bible come from such sources.
It is impossible for an unbeliever to correctly interpret scripture. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit . . . neither can he know them” (1 Corinthians 2:14). An unsaved man (someone who does not have the Holy Spirit) cannot understand the truth of the Bible. He has no illumination. Further, even being a pastor or theologian does not guarantee one’s salvation.
An example of the chaos created by unbelief is found in John 12:28-29. Jesus prays to the Father, saying, “Father, glorify Thy name.” The Father responds with an audible voice from heaven, which everyone nearby hears. Notice, however, the difference in interpretation: “The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, ‘An angel spake to Him.’” Everyone heard the same thing—an intelligible statement from heaven—yet everyone heard what he wanted to hear.
2. Lack of training. The Apostle Peter warns against those who “wrest [misinterpret]” the scriptures. He attributes their spurious teachings, in part, to the fact that they are “unlearned” (2 Peter 3:16). Timothy is told to “study to show thyself approved unto God” (2 Timothy 2:15). There is no shortcut to proper biblical interpretation; we are constrained to study.
3. Poor hermeneutics. Much error has been promulgated because of a simple failure to apply good hermeneutics (the science of interpreting scripture). Taking a verse out of its immediate context can do great damage to the intent of the verse. Ignoring the wider context of the chapter and book, or failing to understand the historical/cultural context will also lead to problems.
4. Ignorance of the whole Word of God. Apollos was a powerful and eloquent preacher, but he only knew of the baptism of John. He was ignorant of Jesus and His provision of salvation, so his message was incomplete. Aquila and Priscilla took him aside and “expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly” (Acts 18:24-28). After that, Apollos preached Jesus Christ. Some groups and individuals today have an incomplete message, because they concentrate on certain passages, to the exclusion of others. They fail to compare scripture with scripture.
5. Selfishness and pride. Sad to say, many interpretations of the Bible are based on an individual’s own personal biases and pet doctrines. Some people see an opportunity for personal advancement by promoting a “new perspective” on scripture. See the description of false teachers in Jude’s epistle.
6. Failure to mature. When Christians are not maturing as they should, their handling of the Word of God is affected. “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat . . . for ye are yet carnal” (1 Corinthians 3:2-3). An immature Christian is not ready for the “meat” of God’s Word. Note that the proof of the Corinthians’ carnality is a division in their church (verse 4).
7. Undue emphasis on tradition. Some churches claim to believe the Bible, but their interpretation is always filtered through the established tradition of their church. Where tradition and the teaching of the Bible are in conflict, tradition is given precedence. This effectively negates the authority of the Word and grants the church leadership supremacy.
On the essentials, the Bible is abundantly clear. There is nothing ambiguous about the deity of Christ, the reality of heaven and hell, and salvation by grace through faith. On some issues of less import, however, the teaching of scripture is less clear, and this naturally leads to different interpretations. For example, we have no direct biblical command governing the frequency of communion or the structure of church government or the style of music to use. Honest, sincere Christians can have various interpretations of the passages concerning these peripheral issues.
The important thing is to be dogmatic where scripture is and to avoid being dogmatic where scripture is not. Churches today should strive to follow the model left us by the early church in Jerusalem: “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers” (Acts 2:42). There was unity in the early church because they were steadfast in the apostles’ doctrine. There will be unity in the church again when we get back to the apostles’ doctrine and forego the other doctrines, fads, and gimmicks that have crept in.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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cballard
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP, I agree with all you said until #7. Emphasis on tradition does not negate Scripture. Scripture itself attests to its emphasis. Check out 2 Thes. 2:15 and 3:6. Both verses say to hold to the tradition handed down EITHER by statement, letter or example. If you don't hold with tradition you are making up something new. The New Testament does not state anywhere that it is the ONLY rule of The Way. The doctrine of sola scriptura is not found in Scripture. If that's your doctrine, prove it's in Scripture. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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You seem to be talking about something different than what #7 says, as it specifically talks about undue emphasis on tradition and conflict between tradition and the teaching of the Bible.
Are you to assert that we take tradition over scripture?
Here is what you offered:
2 Thessalonians 2:11-15 AMP Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, (12) In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. (13) But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. (14) [It was] to this end that He called you through our Gospel, so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah). (15) So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 3:6-7 AMP Now we charge you, brethren, in the name and on the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) that you withdraw and keep away from every brother (fellow believer) who is slack in the performance of duty and is disorderly, living as a shirker and not walking in accord with the traditions and instructions that you have received from us. (7) For you yourselves know how it is necessary to imitate our example, for we were not disorderly or shirking of duty when we were with you [we were not idle].
Who are the 'we' being referred to?
2Th 1:1 PAUL, SILVANUS (Silas), and Timothy, to the church (assembly) of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One):
So, what else does scripture say about authority?
2 Timothy 3:16-17 AMP Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action), (17) So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1 John 5:9 AMP If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son.
Now a warning of what will happen to those who alter His word:
Revelation 22:18-19 AMP I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book. (19) And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.
Galatians 1:8-9 AMP But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)! (9) As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
and an admonition not to be misled by those who pretend to be from them:
2Th 2:2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
Now, regarding final authority between Scripture and tradition:
Isa 8:20 [Direct such people] to the teaching and to the testimony! If their teachings are not in accord with this word, it is surely because there is no dawn and no morning for them.
Joh 5:39 You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
John 5:46-47 AMP For if you believed and relied on Moses, you would believe and rely on Me, for he wrote about Me [personally]. (47) But if you do not believe and trust his writings, how then will you believe and trust My teachings? [How shall you cleave to and rely on My words?]
Rom 15:4 For whatever was thus written in former days was written for our instruction, that by [our steadfast and patient] endurance and the encouragement [drawn] from the Scriptures we might hold fast to and cherish hope.
Mat 22:29 But Jesus replied to them, You are wrong because you know neither the Scriptures nor God's power.
So, according to Scripture, the Word of God is the final authority. Any tradition of man or the church which contradicts, or does not comply with, scripture, - is in error. To put the traditions of the church over the Word of God is simply wrong.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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daviddale3
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Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP, nice post.
| Quote: | 1. Unbelief. The fact is that many who claim to be Christians have never been born again. They wear the label of “Christian,” but there has been no true change of heart. Many presume to teach the Bible who do not even believe the Bible to be true. They claim to speak for God yet live in a state of unbelief. Most false interpretations of the Bible come from such sources.
It is impossible for an unbeliever to correctly interpret scripture. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit . . . neither can he know them” (1 Corinthians 2:14). An unsaved man (someone who does not have the Holy Spirit) cannot understand the truth of the Bible. He has no illumination. Further, even being a pastor or theologian does not guarantee one’s salvation. |
If this is correct then how can anyone be saved. I find this troubling to say the lest. It is your contention that a person who is not saved cannot understand the Word of God, correct? Reason being that they do not posses the one (for lack of a better word) tool needed to understand the scriptures, the Holy Spirit. Yet it is the Word of God that produces belief in a person to begin with.
In John 17:6-21 states:
6- I have mainifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept my word.
7- Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8- For I have given unto them the words which thou gvest me; and they have recieved them, and have known surely that I came out of thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9- I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10- And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11- And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are.
12- While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13- And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14- I have give them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world,even as I am not of the world.
15- I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou chouldest keep them from the evil.
16- They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17- Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth.
18- As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I aslo sent them into the world.
19- and for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20- Niether pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
21- That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
In this section of the Lord's prayer (not the on in Matt., that was just a sample pray), He is praying for his disciples. Who were they? The context shows that it was for the eleven that were gathered with him in the upperroom (verses 12 & 20 in perticular). Now notice verse 20, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word." Notice that our Lord states that belief comes through the words of the apostles. It is the words of the apostles that produces faith in an individual. Yet some would say that 'The apostles are all dead, therefore we do not have their words'. This is false since we do have their words. You have just read some of them. We have their words in the Bible.
If what you say is correct, then no one can be saved. Why? Simple.
1) The words of the apostles produce faith.
2) We have their words in the New Testement.
3) The world cannot understand their words since they cannot recieve the Spirit (John 14:17).
Conclusion: The world cannot believe because they cannot understand the words that produce faith.
I for one can attest to the power of the Word. I was one that was in the world. Strict athiest. One day my wife suckered me into attending Wed. night Bible study at a congregation she had been visiting for a couple of weeks. As I sat in one the class, I found the subject to be interesting. We were studing about David and Bethsheba. Later that night, I picked up her Bible and began to study it for myself. I would sit at my desk almost every night for a couple of hours. To make a long story short, because of my own personal study, I came to believe in the one called Jesus. Remember that I was in the world and did not have the 'illumination' that you are refering to, yet, I came to have faith.
| Quote: | | 2. Lack of training. The Apostle Peter warns against those who “wrest [misinterpret]” the scriptures. He attributes their spurious teachings, in part, to the fact that they are “unlearned” (2 Peter 3:16). Timothy is told to “study to show thyself approved unto God” (2 Timothy 2:15). There is no shortcut to proper biblical interpretation; we are constrained to study. |
True.
| Quote: | | 3. Poor hermeneutics. Much error has been promulgated because of a simple failure to apply good hermeneutics (the science of interpreting scripture). Taking a verse out of its immediate context can do great damage to the intent of the verse. Ignoring the wider context of the chapter and book, or failing to understand the historical/cultural context will also lead to problems. |
See this all the time.  It is very sad indeed. The thing that amazes me the most is that we apply these skills to all other books without any real confusion.
| Quote: | | Some groups and individuals today have an incomplete message, because they concentrate on certain passages, to the exclusion of others. They fail to compare scripture with scripture. |
This is a big failure. How can a person ever come to a knowledge of the truth if they never get the 'Big Picture'. That is one rule of Bible study that I learned a long time ago. Always look and study all passages on any on particular subject. It is the only way to get the entire truth.
| Quote: | | 5. Selfishness and pride. Sad to say, many interpretations of the Bible are based on an individual’s own personal biases and pet doctrines. Some people see an opportunity for personal advancement by promoting a “new perspective” on scripture. See the description of false teachers in Jude’s epistle. |
Along with this I would add those who interpret the Bible to cover their own personal sin. They will find something somewhere to show that the sin is okay instead of letting the Bible rebuke them.
| Quote: | | 6. Failure to mature. When Christians are not maturing as they should, their handling of the Word of God is affected. “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat . . . for ye are yet carnal” (1 Corinthians 3:2-3). An immature Christian is not ready for the “meat” of God’s Word. Note that the proof of the Corinthians’ carnality is a division in their church (verse 4). |
No argument their.
| Quote: | | 7. Undue emphasis on tradition. Some churches claim to believe the Bible, but their interpretation is always filtered through the established tradition of their church. Where tradition and the teaching of the Bible are in conflict, tradition is given precedence. This effectively negates the authority of the Word and grants the church leadership supremacy. |
True.
| Quote: | | For example, we have no direct biblical command governing the frequency of communion or the structure of church government or the style of music to use. |
I must take issue with you on these.
Communion, Acts 20:7, They came together upon the first day of the week. How many first days of the week are in a year? 52.
Style of music, Eph. 5:19, we are to sing. All other types are a no go. When God told Noah to build the ark, He told Noah to build it out of Gopher wood. All others types or wood were off limits. This is basic hermeneutics. Same applies to music. God has told us what we are to do, sing. All other types are off limits.
| Quote: | | Honest, sincere Christians can have various interpretations of the passages concerning these peripheral issues. |
I wonder if God sees these as just peripheral issues. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Starting with the easiest:
| daviddale3 wrote: | | I wonder if God sees these as just peripheral issues. |
If they do not affect justification and sanctification then they are peripheral issues. Can one be saved and not participate in communion ritual? Certainly they can.
You referenced Acts 20:7
Acts 20:7 AMP And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled together to break bread [the Lord's Supper], Paul discoursed with them, intending to leave the next morning; and he kept on with his message until midnight.
Did I miss something that tells us we are to meet on the first day of every week and break bread together? The passage you referenced is a description of what was going on, not a command of what we are to do as the body of Christ. The closest thing you get to in this vein is the last supper where Jesus shared bread and wine with the disciples and told them 'do this in rememberance of Me". And even in that instance He did not tell them when or how often to do it.
| Quote: | | Style of music, Eph. 5:19, we are to sing. All other types are a no go... God has told us what we are to do, sing. All other types are off limits. |
Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music to the Lord in your heart,
Perhaps you simply ignored all other scripture concerning worship, praise, and music:
2 Chronicles 29:27-28 HCSB Then Hezekiah ordered that the burnt offering be offered on the altar. When the burnt offerings began, the song of the LORD and the trumpets began, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel. (28) The whole assembly was worshiping, singing the song, and blowing the trumpets--all of this continued until the burnt offering was completed.
Habakkuk 3:19 HCSB Yahweh my Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like those of a deer and enables me to walk on mountain heights! For the choir director: on stringed instruments.
Revelation 5:8-9 HCSB When He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (9) And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 14:2-3 HCSB I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of cascading waters and like the rumbling of loud thunder. The sound I heard was also like harpists playing on their harps. (3) They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, but no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
1Ch 23:5 4,000 are to be gatekeepers, and 4,000 are to praise the LORD with the instruments that I have made for worship."
2 Chronicles 7:6 HCSB The priests were standing at their stations, as were the Levites with the musical instruments of the LORD, which King David had made to praise the LORD--"for His faithful love endures forever"--when David offered praise with them. Across from them, the priests were blowing trumpets, and all the people were standing.
Psalms 8:1 HCSB For the choir director: on the Gittith. A Davidic psalm. LORD, our Lord, how magnificent is Your name throughout the earth! You have covered the heavens with Your majesty.
Psa 84:1 For the choir director: on the Gittith. A psalm of the sons of Korah. How lovely is Your dwelling place, LORD of Hosts.
Psalms 150:3-6 HCSB Praise Him with trumpet blast; praise Him with harp and lyre. (4) Praise Him with tambourine and dance; praise Him with flute and strings. (5) Praise Him with resounding cymbals; praise Him with clashing cymbals. (6) Let everything that breathes praise the LORD. Hallelujah!
Psalms 33:2-3 HCSB Praise the LORD with the lyre; make music to Him with a ten-stringed harp. (3) Sing a new song to Him; play skillfully on the strings, with a joyful shout.
I could post more, but I think the point is made. You sir are definitely guilty of poor hermeneutics.
| Quote: |
If what you say is correct, then no one can be saved. Why? Simple.
1) The words of the apostles produce faith.
2) We have their words in the New Testement.
3) The world cannot understand their words since they cannot recieve the Spirit (John 14:17).
Conclusion: The world cannot believe because they cannot understand the words that produce faith.
I for one can attest to the power of the Word. I was one that was in the world. Strict athiest. One day my wife suckered me into attending Wed. night Bible study at a congregation she had been visiting for a couple of weeks. As I sat in one the class, I found the subject to be interesting. We were studing about David and Bethsheba. Later that night, I picked up her Bible and began to study it for myself. I would sit at my desk almost every night for a couple of hours. To make a long story short, because of my own personal study, I came to believe in the one called Jesus. Remember that I was in the world and did not have the 'illumination' that you are refering to, yet, I came to have faith.
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Really? You did it all on your own? You sought God and sought His Word, no help from anyone, no 'illumination'? Just you and the bible...
So then you realize of course, through your extensive biblical studies, that either you are mistaken, or scripture is. which is it? Are you wrong or is the bible wrong?
2Th 2:13 But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth.
1 Corinthians 2:9-14 HCSB But as it is written: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, and what has never come into a man's heart, is what God has prepared for those who love Him. (10) Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. (11) For who among men knows the concerns of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the concerns of God except the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. (13) We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. (14) But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.
Ephesians 1:17-19 HCSB I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him. (18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the glorious riches of His inheritance among the saints, (19) and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power to us who believe, according to the working of His vast strength.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 HCSB I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. (27) I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances.
Ephesians 2:5 AMP Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).
Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 AMP And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit]. (14) But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
Again, I could post more, but I think the point is made.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: |
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jp that was an excellent post and article you wrote....it is full of truth...
and in my opinion those 'essentials' are basics that all who profess HIS name should agree on if they took the time to study the scriptures in context to see what they are saying....but as we see regularly...many don't...and make up fairy tales for what they don't know....
keep up the good work sir...  |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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6. Failure to mature. When Christians are not maturing as they should, their handling of the Word of God is affected. “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat . . . for ye are yet carnal” (1 Corinthians 3:2-3). An immature Christian is not ready for the “meat” of God’s Word. Note that the proof of the Corinthians’ carnality is a division in their church (verse 4).
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.
reminds me when babies are teething...boy are they cranky..LOL.. 
Pro 30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.
Isa 7:22 And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk [that] they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
I think the churning of milk into butter is necessary for growth..It does bring forth wrath and it does bring forth strife, but by these things are we "shown" how to choose good over evil.
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
their learning... 
Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP, what traditions do you hold to?
Then, YOU said one can be saved without participating in the "communion ritual." Tell me your interpretaton of Jesus saying somewhere in John 6, "unless you eat my body and drink my blood you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you. " What does Jesus mean when He says this???? YOU say, "Certainly they can be saved", but Jesus doesn't. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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hello cballard....i have been thinking a lot about the communion issue myself lately....i would much love to discuss it with you in a loving manner and try to understand exactly how the catholics view communion...i have learned over the years that not everything the protestant church teaches on catholism is true....
i have some thoughts on the subject of communion and what it is and entails to share....if you would like to discuss them...i would to...
in a new thread..... |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene, I would love to and will meet you wherever you want to take this thread. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| thank you so much...i started a thread in this forum it is called...'thoughts on communion'...a couple of nice folks have responded already....please reply there if you would...much love...theseldomscene... |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | RevJP, what traditions do you hold to? |
Can't really say I hold to too many 'traditions' cballard.
I adhere to and believe in two sacramental rites: Baptism and communion, and I feel I am a fairly strict adherehent to the 5 solas.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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daviddale3
Kitten
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 146
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP,
| Quote: | | Did I miss something that tells us we are to meet on the first day of every week and break bread together? The passage you referenced is a description of what was going on, not a command of what we are to do as the body of Christ. The closest thing you get to in this vein is the last supper where Jesus shared bread and wine with the disciples and told them 'do this in rememberance of Me". And even in that instance He did not tell them when or how often to do it. |
The question we need to find the answer to is simply this, should there be any frequency and regularity in observing this part of worship? If so, who shall regulate it? The church or God? It is agreed that no man has the authority to regulate and control another's worship. This being right, the priviledge, therefore, belongs to God and not man. Has God, in exercising his authority, taught one group to observe it annually, another semiannually, another monthly, and another weekly? Of course not. Thus it is obvious that men have stepped out of their places, usurped the authority of God, in attempting to regulate man's worship to God. In attempting to escape this conclusion men say that God has not taught us the frequency of observing the Lord's supper and that the annual, semiannual, quarterly or monthly observance is acceptable, which you are now trying to establish here. The problem with this is that it lands you in another delemma. For if God has taught us no regular time to observe the Lord's supper, then the man who observes it only once in a lifetime has obeyed God and is just as scriptual as any one else. Hence, the Bible must have more to say about it than you think.
Let's consider a few items.
1) The Jerusalem church continued steadfastly in the observance of it: "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers" (Acts 2:42). This passage indicates a regularity and frequency and not an occasional custom. It further indicate that the frequency of its observence was so well know to Theophilus that it was useless to write him the details.
2) The church at Troas came together on the first day of the week for the purpose of breaking bread: "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preacher unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech untill midnight." (Acts 20:7). From this verse I offer the following:
1) Their taking it on that day is an approved precedent. If it had been wrong, Paul would have condemned it.
2) They came together on that day, the first day of the week, for the primary purpose of breaking bread. Which first day of the week? There is but one first day of the week. There has never been a week without a first day or with more than one first day.
3) Does this mean that they took the Supper the first day of every week? It does not say 'every week', but neither does it say that God commanded the Jews to keep every Sabbath. God said, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Exodus 20:8). They were obligated to keep the Sabbath. It came around once a week; therefore they were obligated to keep it every week. The early disciples met upon "the first day of the week" to break bread, and did so with apostolic approval. If we follow this approved example, how often shall we meet to break bread? Just as ofter as the first day of the week comes, and that is once every week.
4) It must be admitted that the meeting together upon the first day of the week and their breaking bread, according to this verse, occured with the same frequency. They met together upon the first day of the week, and they broke bread upon the first day of the week. If you separate the breaking of bread upon the first day of the week from the meeting together upon the first day of the week, you do so with no authority. Consistency demands that if you abondon the breaking of bread upon the first day of the week, then you must also abandon the meeting together upon the first day of the week.
5) If you deny that this verse teaches that we should observe the Lord's supper upon the first day of every week, then tell me how you have learned from it that it aught to be observed annually, semiannually, quarterly or monthly?
3) All agree that the first day of the week is observed because it is the day the Lord came forth trom the tomb. Now will the annual, semiannual, quarterly and monthly observers of the Lord's death-for the Lord's supper shows his death-tell me why they observe the Lord's resurrection every week but observe his death only annually, semiannually, quarterly or monthly?
4) The church at Corinth ate the Lord's supper when they assembled, which was the first day of every week. To the church at Corinth, which had corrupted the Lord's supper through hunger and drunkenness, Paul said, "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper." (I Cor. 11:20). It is evident that it was their practice to attempt to eat the Lord's supper when they assembled. Now if there was any regularity about their meeting together, there was also regularity about their eating the Lord's supper. Here is the regularity about their metting together: "Upon the first day of ther week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (I Cor. 16:2). Does this mean the first day of every week? If not, why do we pass the collection plates upon the first day of every week? If this is not our authority for it, what is? Yes, it means the first day of every week. Let us see what we have:
1) It was their practice to eat the Lord's supper when they met together (I Cor. 11:20).
2) It was their practice to meet together upon the first day of every week (I Cor. 16:2).
3) Therfore, it was their practice to eat the Lord's supper upon the first day of every week.
| Quote: | | Really? You did it all on your own? You sought God and sought His Word, no help from anyone, no 'illumination'? Just you and the bible... |
That is what I said.
| Quote: | | So then you realize of course, through your extensive biblical studies, that either you are mistaken, or scripture is. which is it? Are you wrong or is the bible wrong? |
Or maybe, just maybe, you could be mistaken.
| Quote: | | 2Th 2:13 But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. |
I fail to see the illumination part. The only thing I can see is the fact that all who hear and obey the truth as revealed by the Spirit throught the inspired apostles are sanctified by the Spirit, and are God's chosen people.
| Quote: | 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 HCSB But as it is written: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, and what has never come into a man's heart, is what God has prepared for those who love Him. (10) Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. (11) For who among men knows the concerns of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the concerns of God except the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. (13) We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. (14) But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.
Ephesians 1:17-19 HCSB I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him. (18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the glorious riches of His inheritance among the saints, (19) and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power to us who believe, according to the working of His vast strength. |
You seem to have forgotten one of the first principles of hermeneutics, that being, to whom was it written. They were written to those who have already been saved, not to those who are lost.
| Quote: | | Ezekiel 36:26-27 HCSB I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. (27) I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances. |
And? Still do not see any hint of the socalled illumination here.
It is true that God will put a new heart and a new spirit within us, the question is how? (John 17:17).
| Quote: | Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
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Those whom the Father draws to Christ are those who are influenced by him to come. The means, or methods of such attraction is the gospel which is intended to be preached to all. (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15,16). All are invited to come and those who do come to the Lord re those willing to respond to the gospel. (Matt. 11:28). Some, like those unbelieving Jews, are not drarn, because they do not will to do so. One must be of the right disposition and have the proper response to the drawing power of the Father which he exercises through the gospel. This is shown to be true in the verse following which Jesus supported by teaching from the prophets. Nowhere does this teach 'illumination'. Read verse 45 for yourself.
| Quote: | | 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 AMP And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit]. (14) But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated. |
Again, this was written to those who are already saved, not the lost.
We will save the music for a later date. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In attempting to escape this conclusion men say that God has not taught us the frequency of observing the Lord's supper and that the annual, semiannual, quarterly or monthly observance is acceptable, which you are now trying to establish here. |
Actually, what I was establishing is that scripture has not dictated a frequency so that any religion or man that teaches such is doing so outside of scripture.
As I read what you wrote you seem to be saying the same thing. If one chooses to observe weekly, monthly annually or once in a lifetime that is acceptable as far a scripture is concerned, but when they attempt to assert that one MUST observe regularly then they are stepping out of thier scriptural bounds.
I will come back to the rest of what you have posted later, I need time to attempt to decipher what you are saying.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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daviddale3
Kitten
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 146
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Let's talk about the music issue for a minute.
All religious organizations are in agreement that music has a place in New Testement worship, but are not agreed as to whether it should be vocal or instrumental, or vocal accompanied by instrumental. The guiding principle that we should adhere by is to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent. Strict adherence to this basic principle is the reason for the omission of instrumental music in the worship service.
The following is a record of the music mentioned in the New Testement:
1) "And when they had sung a hymn, they went out into the mount of olives" (Matt. 26:30).
2) "And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them (Acts 16:25).
3) "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name" (Romans 15:9).
4) "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also (I Cor. 14:15).
5) "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. (Eph. 5:19).
6) "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Col. 3:16).
7) "Saying, I will declare thy name unto the breathern, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee (Heb.2:12).
8) "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name (Heb.13:15).
9) "Is any among you afflicted? let his pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms (James 5:13).
Christ's leaving intrumental music out of the worship settles the matter. The Lord's church is a New Testement institution and the New Testement tells us of the items of worship put in it. We have seen that the New Testement is silent concerning instrumental music in the worship. It is evident that those who have it in the worship do so without scriptual authority. We should not presume to add to the divine pattern.
We must remember that there are two kinds of commands: specific and generic. For instance, "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch (Gen. 6:14). This is a specific command. God specified the wood and that was the end of the matter relative to the kind of wood. God did not say, 'Thou shalt use no other kind of wood', but the fact that God limited the wood to gopher wood forbade the use of any other kind. Now if God had said 'Make thee an ark of wood,' the use of any kind of wood would have met this generic command. Also, if the New Testement had said, 'Make music,' we could have complied with the requirement by making either vocal or instumental music, or both. God, however, did not say that. He said, "sing," and that restricts the music to vocal. The specification and limitation is as clear here as it was in the command to build the ark out of gopher wood. The specific command to sing should be enough for us who are willing to take God at his word and do what he says because he said it.
How about what some of the religious leaders of the past. Although these men were not inspired, I think it adventagious to here what they had to say.
John Calvin: "Musical instuments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitalble then the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, the restoration of the other shadows of law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things, from the Jews." John Calvin's Commentary, Thirty-third Psalm.
Adam Clark: "Music as a science, I esteem and admire; but instuments of music in the house of God I adominate and adhor. This is the abuse of music; and here I register my protest against all such corruptions in the worship of the Author of Christianity." Clark's Comentary, Vol. IV., p. 686.
John Wesley: "I have no objection to instuments of music, in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen." Clark's Commentary, Vol. IV., p. 686.
Martin Luther: "called the organ an ensign of Ball". McClintock & Strong's Encyclopedia, Music, Vol. VI., p. 762.
Charles H. Spurgeon preached for 20 years to thousands of people weekly in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle, London, England, did not have musical insruments in the worship. M.C. Kurfees, Instumental Music in the Worship, p. 196.
Conybeare and Howson: "Make melody with the music of your hearts, to the Lord.....let your songs be, not the drinking songs of heathen feasts, but psalms and hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart." Life and Epistles of St. Paul, Vol. II, p. 408.
These religious leader, again, not inspired, are quoted not for the purpose of proving insrumental music in the worship is wrong, but to show that it has been rejected by many religious leaders of the world. If no one taught instrumental music in the worsip is wrong, it would not change the New Testement teaching; but it is evident that others have occupied this same position and that I do not stand alone.
RevJP
| Quote: | Perhaps you simply ignored all other scripture concerning worship, praise, and music:
2 Chronicles 29:27-28 HCSB Then Hezekiah ordered that the burnt offering be offered on the altar. When the burnt offerings began, the song of the LORD and the trumpets began, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel. (28) The whole assembly was worshiping, singing the song, and blowing the trumpets--all of this continued until the burnt offering was completed.
Habakkuk 3:19 HCSB Yahweh my Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like those of a deer and enables me to walk on mountain heights! For the choir director: on stringed instruments.
Revelation 5:8-9 HCSB When He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (9) And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 14:2-3 HCSB I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of cascading waters and like the rumbling of loud thunder. The sound I heard was also like harpists playing on their harps. (3) They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, but no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
1Ch 23:5 4,000 are to be gatekeepers, and 4,000 are to praise the LORD with the instruments that I have made for worship."
2 Chronicles 7:6 HCSB The priests were standing at their stations, as were the Levites with the musical instruments of the LORD, which King David had made to praise the LORD--"for His faithful love endures forever"--when David offered praise with them. Across from them, the priests were blowing trumpets, and all the people were standing.
Psalms 8:1 HCSB For the choir director: on the Gittith. A Davidic psalm. LORD, our Lord, how magnificent is Your name throughout the earth! You have covered the heavens with Your majesty.
Psa 84:1 For the choir director: on the Gittith. A psalm of the sons of Korah. How lovely is Your dwelling place, LORD of Hosts.
Psalms 150:3-6 HCSB Praise Him with trumpet blast; praise Him with harp and lyre. (4) Praise Him with tambourine and dance; praise Him with flute and strings. (5) Praise Him with resounding cymbals; praise Him with clashing cymbals. (6) Let everything that breathes praise the LORD. Hallelujah!
Psalms 33:2-3 HCSB Praise the LORD with the lyre; make music to Him with a ten-stringed harp. (3) Sing a new song to Him; play skillfully on the strings, with a joyful shout.
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Two things with the verses that you have offered up.
1) You attempt to justify instumental music in New Testement worship by saying that it had a part in Old Testement worship. But if that authorizes that playing of musical instuments in the worship, it will also authorize the offering of animal sacrifices and the burning of incense in the worship. If you bring instrumental music into the worship today on the ground that it is mentioned in the Old Testement, consistency demands that you bring animal sacrifices and the burning of incense also. If you leave the offering of animal sacrifices and the burning of incense out of the worship today on the ground that Jesus did not include them in the New Testement, you must also leave out the playing of instuments for the same reason.
2) You have also tried to justify your stance because harps are mentioned in heaven. Introducing into the worship of the church here on earth the things that are mentioned in heave lead you into greater difficulties then you ever suspected. For instance, Rev. 5:8 mentions not only harps, but also "golden bowls full of incense". Is it right to have incense in the worship just because it is mentioned as being in heaven? No! But there is as much authority for the incense in the worship as there is for the harp or any other musical instument. If this incense spoken of in heaven is either literal or symbolic, it will certainly meet with my approval. And the harps that are in that celstial city, whether literal or figurative, will please me. And if God had put either the harp or the incense, or both, in the church, there would be no objection on my part, but he has put neither in his church. |
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