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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Is God three persons? |
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For those who believe that God is three distinct persons, please define the term 'person' in this context.
Any takers?
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RevJP
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.
The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior
Theology. any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JP. You wrote:
| Quote: | a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.
The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior
Theology. any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost |
Well, the first definition is more in line with Modalism than orthodox Trinitarianism. I will assume that you are not a modalist, so let's move on to the next definition you offered.
| Quote: | | The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior |
So is God three distinct totalities of qualities and traits?
And finally you offered this definition:
| Quote: | | Theology. any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost |
Could you clarify what you mean by 'hypostases'? I should note again that the view that God is three modes of one Being is precisely what Modalism teaches. Perhaps you are a modalist?
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RevJP
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't know what you are talking about. You asked for a definition of 'person' as it is used in the doctrine of the trinity. I gave you that.
The Hypostatic Union
The Hypostatic Union is the teaching that the Word of God became flesh and we call Him Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. As the SCripture says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14). This means that in the divine word became flesh in the single person of Jesus who is, then, both human and divine in nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered in this union. Rather, the divine holy nature of the Word remains as it is.
Furthermore, Jesus is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is the second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
Also, in the incarnation, Jesus was made for a while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and under the law (Gal. 4:4). This means that Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man (Phil. 2:5-8). In other words, He really was a man and as a man exhibited the proper restrictions of His humanity such as growing taller, eating, growing in wisdom, etc., which would be expected of a real human being.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 890
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Very nicely said, RevJP!
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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theseldomscene
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ..he has his moments... |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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JP,
I'm trying to get some clarification the definitions you offered, as they are quite vague. In what sense is God three totalities of qualities and traits?
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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RevJP
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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While I am not able to fully comprehend nor explain the complete nature of God I can offer some type of analogy as a hint;
I am JP, I am a father, a husband, and a boss. I am all of these persons but I am still just JP. Each of my 'personhoods' performs a different function for different people for different reasons. I am not a husband to my children, a father to my wife, nor a husband or father to those that work for me, but I am still JP.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I am JP, I am a father, a husband, and a boss. I am all of these persons but I am still just JP. Each of my 'personhoods' performs a different function for different people for different reasons. I am not a husband to my children, a father to my wife, nor a husband or father to those that work for me, but I am still JP. |
JP,
That is more fitting to modalism, as I've noted. One person; three roles, modes, forms. Are you a modalist?
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 890
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | apocatastasis:
That is more fitting to modalism, as I've noted. One person; three roles, modes, forms. Are you a modalist? |
apocatastasis, I'm sorry I have to comment. I've read a few of your posts (not a lot of them), but you seem to be a fairly smart guy. Why is it that your comments here basically ignore JP's 'Hypostatic Union' explaination. A very succinct, and complete explaination I might add. Your question in this thread has been answered in full. I get the feeling you do not like that, so you are trying to twist things now.....perhaps digging for something you can attack?
Oh.....and btw, you missed the word...'analogy' in JP's last post.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
I know JP presented an analogy and as such it is best suited for Modalism. Do you know what modalism is?
You say that I don't like what I've heard and have thus twisted things? Nonsense. I simply asked for a definition of 'person' in this context. JP initially offered three definitions which demand clarification. Simply saying that the Father and the Son are distinct persons does not answer my question. thanks for understanding, Dust.
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RevJP
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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No apoc, I do not know what 'modalism' is, nor do I care that much - you see, I'm not much of one for labels. People usually use labels in order to attack or dismiss things without properly considering them, kind of a lazy way to go about debate.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JP,
| Quote: | | No apoc, I do not know what 'modalism' is, nor do I care that much - |
I was under the impression that you are learned and interested in theology. Weren't you just thwoing around labels like "hypostatic union" afterall?
Anyway, labels aside, is it you view that God reveals himself in three forms? If so, do you further believe that these forms are distinct persons in the sense of "totalities of qualities and traits"? | Quote: | | you see, I'm not much of one for labels. People usually use labels in order to attack or dismiss things without properly considering them, kind of a lazy way to go about debate. |
I couldn't agree more, although you must understand that I'm not trying to categorize you in order to dismiss you. I'm more of a modalist myself, I'd say.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was under the impression that you are learned and interested in theology |
Your impressions are of your own construct, and are truly irrelevant.
Interested in theology? Absolutely, in so far as scripture is concerned. Since 'modalism' isn't in scripture or suggested by scripture that I know of I have had no reason to study on it.
| Quote: | | Weren't you just thwoing around labels like "hypostatic union" afterall? |
Hypostatic Union is indeed a descriptive of a concept. As for throwing it around I wouldn't agree to that characterization. I posted a defintion of 'person' as is concerned by theology, as you requested, that happened to mention hypostasis. You asked what hypostasis meant and I gave you a definition. Was I wrong in doing so?
| Quote: | | Anyway, labels aside, is it you view that God reveals himself in three forms? If so, do you further believe that these forms are distinct persons in the sense of "totalities of qualities and traits"? |
My beliefs concerning the nature of God and scripture are very clearly demonstrated here:
http://jpsmind.wordpress.com/statement-of-faith/
Feel free to read it at your leisure, if there is anything in it which you think requires further clarification please ask.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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JP,
I'd like to have a discussion on what it means to say that God is three persons. I think I made this clear in my opening post. Apparently you would like to define God as three totalities of qualities and traits. Is this correct? I'm just trying to get a better idea of your answer to the initial question.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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