Left Behind: Pre Tribulation or not?

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:04 am Post subject:

the last day....

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
the last trump.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
changed in the twinklng of an eye.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
shall meet him in the air.

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
and shall reign with him as priests and kings.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

world without end.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rom 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Jhn 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

just tossin stuff around
Peace
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

just practicing...

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

..sorry...mistake.... Embarassed

Thunderone · Tadpole Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

Well this I know for sure. Jesus himself says in the gospels that he will come only one more time. His 1st coming has already happened, no dispute there.
It is written all over the New Testament that there will be a second coming. Not a third or fourth, but a second coming.

Now having that brought to light, Jesus will only come one more time.
No secret Rapture, No calling up of christian before the Trib. Which by the way, that doctrine was started only 150 -200 yrs ago, by a dream from a girl.

If people read what Jesus said, then look for the answers based on what Jesus tells us himself. Then we see all of the other scriptures are describing his Return at the end of the Trib.
Now I've heard all the interpetations of what people think the verses mean or are indicating.
No where in the bible does it say christian will not go into the Tribulation, as a matter of fact, there are plenty of scriptures that say otherwise.
I will gather a list of these scriptures in the next day or two and post them.

God only promises we will not suffer the wrath of God.
If you survive the disasters, Satan will kill the rest of the christians.

Not all christians will go to heaven, remember before the evil one can be revealed, there has to be a falling away. If Christian are raptured at the beginning, then who will fall away. Christians will fall away, remember the scripture about the 10 virgins in Matthew, Christian will lose faith when Jesus does not return to rapture them before the Trib., so many will fall away from their first love and lose faith and will not be ready when he comes later than they expected.

The last trump does not sound until the end of the Trib.
There can't be two Resurrections. The Bible clearly states in Rev. at the end of the Trib. that this will be the first Resurrection and blessed are they that are included. Remember, the dead shall rise first and we who are living shall not go before them.
No where does it say the first Resurrection is in two stages or that they are two events. It clearly states when this will happen. At the end of the Trib.

Also the Absence of the mention of the church does not mean christians have been raptured. The Church will be destroyed, disbanded, made illegal, people will go into hiding, father against son, Mother against daughter, and so on as stated by Jesus.

It is stated that Satan will overcome the saints and will kill them.
At the beginning you will be put in prison, and you need no words, the Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak. but later we are told to run and hide.

Why would christian be spared the persecution that the disciples them selves endured in the beginning of the church, the end will be the same.
Christian will suffer, and be killed for there faith in Jesus and there REWARD WILL FOLLOW THEM.

They will be saved and have eternal life wit Jesus. This will be the true test of a Christian, this will be a time that the wheat and the chaff will be separated. Those who endure to the end will have eternal life with Jesus. Those that try to save their lives will lose them and those that lose their lives will have eternal life with Jesus.

Its simple if you read what Jesus himself says about his coming. He will come only "ONE" more time! At the end of the Tribulation.

We are told how to prepare ourselves for this time and what to expect.
Do you really think the book of Revelation was for Non-believers only.
If the Christians are raptured at the Beginning, that is all that will be left to go into the Trib. That book was for us now to know what is instore for us, so we can know and prepare ourselves for the things to come.

My next post will include the verses which show Christians going into the Tribulation, and how we should prepare for it.

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: This amazes me

All the drivel the people here go through to try and justify their own point of view about something that hasn't happened yet, whew what a stew.

Notice no one is convinced either way either just rhetoric after rhetoric with no let up, Blah blah blah. Not even new arguments either, There hasn't been a new thought here since this thread was started.

Kind of like the old Calvin vs Arminius debate 400 years of self justification with no end in sight blah blah blah.

Calvin: I'm right,
Arminius:no, I'm right

(Actually they never met so this is a ficitonal scenario)

Give it a rest folks. God will not be put into a box by either of you. It will probably take some additional time for God to figure out a way to make his promises good without either of you being correct, so cool it

The only good thing about this debate here is that you aren't actually killing each other (only figuratively)

Thunderone · Tadpole Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject:

how's that practicing going tss, you got it down perfect yet... Very Happy

just razzin ya.. Razz

John....

thunderone you wrote:

Thunderone · Tadpole Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

The Tribulation has not occured yet. the first Trumpet has not sounded yet nor has the seals been broken and the bowls of judgement been dispersed. All of these events fortold in Revelation happen during the Tribulation.
No where in the Bible does it sya any of those events took place while John was alive or after Jesus died.
The Saints you refer to as resurrected are those released from hell after Jesus went into the earth and ministered to those in Hell. Those that accepted him came out of there place in hell and came back with Jesus and were seen walking around, the same as Jesus was seen walking with his disciples after his death. But then as Jesus left and went to heaven so did the Saints, but Jesus was seen to rise up in to Heaven and we are told he will return the same way in all his glory.

The Tribulation has not began and the resurrection will not occur until the time as told in Rev. 20:4-6, at the end of the Tribulation. In verse 6 it states this is the first resurrection. Remember Also Paul writes the dead shall rise first, then we who are living shall be gathered up. All of this takes place at the end of the Tribulation.
Also we the Saints will be overcome by the Beast, but the saints waited for Jesus (Ancient of Days) and they entered heaven with Jesus. Dan 7:18-22
_________________
Thunderone
Everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.
Romans 15:4

John R Nolan · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: pre tribulation

The 'rapture' which is not a Biblical term, describes the catching away of 1 Thes.4:15-16
"The dead in Christ will rise first then we which ARE ALIVE and remain, will be caught up together with them, to meet Him, in the air" etc.
The bride does not go through the tribulation, but the foolish virgin, the 'church' will have to die for their faith or accept the mark of the beast, which is subjection to denominational doctrines INSTEAD of the Word of God
Won't matter what denomination you are a member of, just as long as your group is under the control of the world council of churches and you are a paid up member

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:43 am Post subject:

John, your eschatology sounds a bit like that of a church I used to attend. The church in general was weak and lazy if not outright apostate and would need to be matured by enduring the whole tribulation. The bride was a separate group of much more mature saints (who of course all belonged to the organization that this church I attended was a part of) who were more dedicated and strong Christians, and they would be caught up to be with their Lord sometime before the end of the tribulation.

These days I don't subscribe to the theology that any church organization has such a superior ministry and/or teaching that they are able to produce a group of last days "Super Saints" foretold in prophecy and identified as the Bride of Christ. I think the minute a group identifies themselves like that, they've made it plain they are so full of pride as to make them blind to any spiritual truth that might mature them beyond the level of the rest of the poor average saints in the church at large.

Tell us, John, why did Jesus say in Matthew 24 that the elect would go through at least some of the tribulation? Would Jesus refer to those who hold to church doctrine rather than God's Word as the elect? Why is the gathering of the elect from the 4 corners of the earth with the sounding of the trumpet said to be at the end of the tribulation by Jesus in the gospels?
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John R Nolan · Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: END TIME

In reading the various comments regarding 1 Thes.4, the possibility there is no such thing, the suggestion that much of this was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross, and it is rather depressing to see how confused most are regarding this
For Christians it is necessary to BELIEVE ALL God's Word or you would be better off going and joining some works oriented church and start working out your own salvation, for you have rejected that offered by CHRIST
One is either a Bible believing Christian or a make believer, with a hope of maybe being counted in the foolish virgin, who will die for their faith
The 'secret rapture' referred to as a falacy is a sad testimony for the writer and surely suggests they are not Christian in the Biblical context
The Gentile bride does NOT go through the tribulation.
What husband would put his bride through such for their honeymoon? There is a distinct difference betwixt the WISE virgin and the foolish, though, it seems, most choose not to see that
Why should a Christian believe in a tribulation if we can't also believe there is a way of escape from it?
Is your God that unfair, that cruel?
Mine is not like that, as with temptation, He always provides a way of escape for those who want it
Those who reject God's Word are taking Lucifer's lie insterad, aren't they?
That this eschatology sounds similar to a church you uset attend is sad, they really taught you some rubbish, I don't have an eschatology and I am NOT a member of any denomination, I am a CHRISTIAN!
It should be clear to scholars that Mat.24 is describing God's dealing with TWO groups
One the Gentile church, the other the Jewish, and God does not deal with both at the same time as we are under different dispensations, covenants
To provide a study on that chapter would take many pages and this is not the place for such but readers are encouraged to go through that chapter slowly and observe where He talks of present (His time there, then) and future events
The Jews do NOT recognize their Messiah until the two prophets of Rev.12, so, obviously, much of Mat.24 is directed to Gentiles
The Jews, as a nation, were never persecuted for "His name's sake" vs.9 as they don't accept Him, the gentiles are described thus
The bride is another term used to describe the WISE virgin, who walk in the LIGHT of their day
I am not interested in anyone's 'church', 'my church says, my pastor says', what does the Bible say, who is God's CHURCH?
His children are His CHURCH, not the denominationally indoctrinated masses
That's why Jesus called HIS PEOPLE to 'COME OUT OF HER'
I do not identify myself as aything but a sinner saved by Grace, I have nothing to do with my election, my calling, it's all HIS work
Any group or individual who call themselves special are acting contrary to Scripture, we need find out HOW and WHAT GOD calls us
Back to Mat.24, briefly, who are these who persevere unto the end, what is the coming of the Son of man described in vs.27?
What does your church say vs.28 means?
Which is the generation described in vs.34?
Who are the 'very elect' of vs 24?
Who says the Seals aren't open? Prove they are not, who opens them and when, before or after the tribulation?
One says 'during the tribulation', prove it
All you 'saints' may be overtaken by satan, I am saved by the blood of He Who defeated Lucifer on the cross, this suggests you are following the wrong saviour, the false one
The world is at it's end, Israel is back in the land, we, the generation born then, are witnessing the destruction of this world as the anti Christ denominations take control of politics, the economy, they have controlled the media for a long time, and we do not pretend there is any more time to come, it's all over bar the shouting
There are no more good to take things up again, I'm looking for the NEW world, why aren't you all?
The 'saints' who made the first ressurection, when Jesus was ressurected were Jews, NOT Gentiles, but who can say whether the first, second third trumpets, etc have sounded?
If so, prove it through Scripture
As commented by another contributor, these debates hold nothing new, they go around and around, like mules chained to a post, without ever looking to see there is an alternate thought process available
All we have to do is die to our preconceptions, pre- relligious conditionings, our thoughts, our ideas and surrender to HIS
Who fulfils Mal.4:5-6?
Who is the angel who comes down in Rev.10:1-7?
Who is the One on the white horse in Rev.19?
Let's hear some Bible thoughts, not personal interpretations and maybes.