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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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P123 wrote:
"Why would we want to read that book? Spetner is a physicist! Why on Earth would we go and listen to a physicist's opinion about evolution when he is clearly speaking outside his area of expertise? ...Especially considering that virtually ALL of the REAL experts, the biologists, zoologists, geneticists, etc. disagree with him! "
Is there a place where one has to earn a specific doctorate in order to understand the concept of evolution? Evolution has not been proven by anyone. It's nothing more than a wild unsubstantiated idea promoted by folks who simply refuse to accept basic laws of physics. There is such a thing as "cause and effect." Atheistic evolutionists refuse to accept the fact that this complex system didn't just happen. Why don't you try to investigate and understand the original cause, instead of denying it. Very unscientific. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | P123 wrote: |
"Why would we want to read that book? Spetner is a physicist! Why on Earth would we go and listen to a physicist's opinion about evolution when he is clearly speaking outside his area of expertise? ...Especially considering that virtually ALL of the REAL experts, the biologists, zoologists, geneticists, etc. disagree with him! " |
Is there a place where one has to earn a specific doctorate in order to understand the concept of evolution? Evolution has not been proven by anyone. It's nothing more than a wild unsubstantiated idea promoted by folks who simply refuse to accept basic laws of physics. There is such a thing as "cause and effect." Atheistic evolutionists refuse to accept the fact that this complex system didn't just happen. Why don't you try to investigate and understand the original cause, instead of denying it. Very unscientific. |
Simply ignoring... or decidedly diminishing his knowledge of evolution (kinda sounds familiar  ) when he statistically demolishes the probabilities of Darwinian evolution is the equivalent of sticking one's head in the same sand YECs evidently have theirs stuck in...
The biologists… zoologists… et. al. are asking us to ignore the statistical data he presented without offering ANY ZIPPO ZERO ZILCH NONE NADA themselves. If they want us to ignore what he has to say… tell us what the math says.
Prediction: They won’t because they know exactly what the impossibilities are for their theory to be true. It would be the equivalent of admitting they are wrong.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | Is there a place where one has to earn a specific doctorate in order to understand the concept of evolution? |
Nope! There's a difference between understanding a concept and being an authority on a concept. I, for instance, consider myself to understand the theory of evolution quite well. I wouldn't ever claim to be an authority on the subject.
| Pete wrote: | | Evolution has not been proven by anyone. |
Evolution has been proven to occur. The theory of evolution, on the other hand, has mountains of supporting evidence.
| Pete wrote: | | It's nothing more than a wild unsubstantiated idea promoted by folks who simply refuse to accept basic laws of physics. |
You mean like people that insist on the second law preventing evolution but then ignore that the first law removes the possibility of God?
| Pete wrote: | | There is such a thing as "cause and effect." |
Yes, and? Can you prove that there is a cause and effect chain for everything? Does God have a cause?
| Pete wrote: | | Atheistic evolutionists refuse to accept the fact that this complex system didn't just happen. |
What? Who's saying it "just happened?"
| Pete wrote: | | Why don't you try to investigate and understand the original cause, instead of denying it. |
Pot, kettle, etc. This line of inquiry goes nowhere in the debate between creation and evolution. I can accuse you of it just as easily as you accuse me, and neither of us believes the accusation to be fair.
| Pete wrote: | | Very unscientific. |
Ooh, yes. By the way, could you please go into detail as to why the theory of evolution involves a refusal to accept basic laws of physics? Like, for instance, which laws of physics are denied?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: |
Is there a place where one has to earn a specific doctorate in order to understand the concept of evolution?
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Anyone can learn to understand anything, and there need not be any degrees involved at all. But you're ignoring an extremely important fact: the VAST majority of mainstream biologists, microbiologists, organic chemists, geneticists, zoologists, botanists, etc. completely support evolution and believe it to be true. These are the people who understand more than anyone else how the living world works, and if the vast majority of them believe in evolution, then most likely there is something to it.
| Pete wrote: |
Evolution has not been proven by anyone.
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Virutally the entire scientific establishment disagrees with you.
There are VERY few people with Ph.Ds in a field related to biology who repudiate evolution. As we have seen on this very board, some of them are frauds. Others have Ph.Ds in unrelated fields. Others got their degrees from unaccredited diploma mills.
| Pete wrote: |
It's nothing more than a wild unsubstantiated idea promoted by folks who simply refuse to accept basic laws of physics. There is such a thing as "cause and effect." Atheistic evolutionists refuse to accept the fact that this complex system didn't just happen. Why don't you try to investigate and understand the original cause, instead of denying it. Very unscientific. |
I'm sorry Pete, it is your claims which are unscientific. The vast majority of the world's real scientists are completely behind evolution. Every single scientific group (NSF, NAS, RS, NSERC, etc.) all endorse evolution in the strongest possible terms.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Biologists do not own the market on conjecture. Understanding the beginning of the material universe is outside the purview of scientists who base their observations on what can be seen and demonstrated. They have done neither.
Evolutionists cannot demonstrate evolution in terms that nothing becomes matter and dirt ultimately becomes a living being with the power of reason. They cannot even hypothisize the concept. They simply refuse to acknowledge a possible alternative. In fact, it is not an exclusive area for biologists to judge. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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No one is refusing to acknowledge possible alternatives, here. It's simply that none of these alternatives you'd like have any use in the field. And on the subject, why do you refuse to acknowledge all the possible alternatives of other mythologies beyond your own?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Biologists do not own the market on conjecture. Understanding the beginning of the material universe is outside the purview of scientists who base their observations on what can be seen and demonstrated. They have done neither.
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Just because you are not aware of the evidence does not mean that the scientists don't have evidence. Do you even know what evidence scientists SAY proves that the Big Bang happened?
| Pete wrote: |
Evolutionists cannot demonstrate evolution in terms that nothing becomes matter and dirt ultimately becomes a living being with the power of reason. They cannot even hypothisize the concept.
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It's gone well past hypothesis. Creationism lost the SCIENTIFIC debate with evolution more than 100 years ago.
| Pete wrote: |
They simply refuse to acknowledge a possible alternative. In fact, it is not an exclusive area for biologists to judge. |
Here's an alternative: humans did not evolve from dirt; they crawled out of a clam shell while raven sat on the top of it and watched.
Do you believe that this happened?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Those who think they know, are confined to observing what happens within the confines of a material environment. They can only base their judgments on what can be seen and observed. It would seem presumptuous to think they can, therefore, decide that nothing can happen or exist outside these parameters.
To reject, out of hand, the possibility that there can be life existing beyond the scope of, and not subject to the laws of physics, seems a little short-sighted. Also, to demand that a background in the physical sciences is qualification to for claiming to be final authority on such investigation is presumptuous to the extreme. It is a return to a flat earth concept. The scope of its vision to the horizon says the earth is flat. We observe it, thus it must be so.
Thus it is with science. It's understanding ends at the horizon. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Those who think they know, are confined to observing what happens within the confines of a material environment. They can only base their judgments on what can be seen and observed. It would seem presumptuous to think they can, therefore, decide that nothing can happen or exist outside these parameters.
To reject, out of hand, the possibility that there can be life existing beyond the scope of, and not subject to the laws of physics, seems a little short-sighted. Also, to demand that a background in the physical sciences is qualification to for claiming to be final authority on such investigation is presumptuous to the extreme. It is a return to a flat earth concept. The scope of its vision to the horizon says the earth is flat. We observe it, thus it must be so.
Thus it is with science. It's understanding ends at the horizon. |
Are we discussing evolution here or are we discussing the existence of God?
If you said that God is beyond the purview of scientific understanding, then you might have a point. But if you're talking about evolution, then you don't have a point.
Animals are made out of physical stuff (atoms). Science is an EXCELLENT tool for studying physical stuff. Therefore science is perfect for studying evolution. There is nothing to suggest that we need some kind of mystical techniques for understanding it.
As for your flat Earth analogy, it isn't very convincing. It was science and not faith which first discovered that the Earth is a sphere. It was science and not faith which discovered that the Earth is NOT at the center of the solar system.
Faith is a TERRIBLE tool for studying our physical universe. Why not use science? That's exactly what it's good at.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity wrote: | | ...the same sand YECs evidently have theirs stuck in... |
What is it you believe?
Joman. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pete wrote: |
Evolutionists cannot demonstrate evolution in terms that nothing becomes matter and dirt ultimately becomes a living being with the power of reason. They cannot even hypothisize the concept.
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It's gone well past hypothesis. Creationism lost the SCIENTIFIC debate with evolution more than 100 years ago. |
... and that is why you are here debating the issue today... because science has won the debate...
With that said, the only thing that science has done is shifted the goal posts. When confronted with the reality that everything can not come from nothing (1LoTD) the answer becomes... well, we are unable to make any judgments about the universe... matter... et. al. before the Big Bang.
When confronted with the realization that life only comes from life, the post is shifted away by removing abiogenesis (which was originally part of Darwinian Evolution - ask Huxley) from the theory, ergo, giving it a shred of creditability.
Lastly, when confronted with what observational science shows us in mutations not creating anything new... that this mechanism, that is evidently the hero to the plot - mutations - show that it is actually devolution, not evolution... then some song and dance about 'define information', 'define new', 'tells us how duplication is not new information', when in all actuality, the only thing mutations are doing is denigrating the DNA... not improving it.
Or... the argument is that it just takes too long.. longer than 4000 generations (fruit flys) I suppose, to see ANY significant changes at all.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| joman wrote: | | Trinity wrote: | | ...the same sand YECs evidently have theirs stuck in... |
What is it you believe?
Joman. |
Um... I beleive that 'In six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them' (Exodus 20:11) and He did it about 6000 years ago. (I Chronicles 1, Matthew 1, Luke 3)
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | ... and that is why you are here debating the issue today... because science has won the debate... |
The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job.
-Sam Harris
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | ... and that is why you are here debating the issue today... because science has won the debate... |
The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job.
-Sam Harris |
That is profound... it appears that 5000 years of recorded human history have absolutely no weight in the argument though. As it is that 'obvious'.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | That is profound... it appears that 5000 years of recorded human history have absolutely no weight in the argument though. |
Should it?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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