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nobody important
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 517
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 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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oh P321... how can I explain?
| Quote: | | "My liver cells are also human in species. The only difference is that my liver has more human cells in it than a zygote does. " |
your liver is human species they belong to your body to your person... A z,e,f is not like your liver it dosnt belong to your body or the mothers body for that matter... biologically, genetically the z,e,f dosnt belong to anyone else apart from itself.. there is no other human being in the world who carries the same Dna or Genetic make up... the z,e,f belongs to his/herself nobody else.... it is not itself its own liver or any other organ or limb the zygote is not a liver or a limb the tissue is its entire body, its entire person.. to destroy this body is not like destroying a liver or a limb its wiping out a indivdual and unique person.
| Quote: | | "So are the geraniums on my window sill. If I killed them would you call me a murderer? " |
a plant murderer... yes
| Quote: | | " are tulip bulbs. If I dug up a tulip bulb and incinerated it, would you call me a murderer?" |
a plant murderer.
| Quote: | | "Every pet dog is also unique and individual. In fact, so is every bacterium. Being unique and individual is therefore not a sufficient condition for being 'special'. You wouldn't think twice about killing a bacterium even though it is unique. " |
these are not human is species though are they?
If there is no value difference in species... then if I can kill and eat a plant or even an animal... then why cant I kill and eat you?
| Quote: | | "First of all, this is just patently false. Not in anyone's wildest imagination does a zygote have a personality. But even if it did, that is not a reason for banning abortion. Every pet dog has a personality, and yet when they get rabies we have no problem putting them down. When humans get rabies, we don't put them down. So once again, personality is not a sufficient condition. If I killed a rabid dog, would you call me a murderer? |
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6. They both have a gender
So do cockroaches. Big deal. And a zygote only has gender in a technical sense because its genome either contains a Y chromosome or it doesn't. It doesn't have gender in any meaningful sense. For example, it would be pretty silly to look at a female fetus and call it a 'little girl'. |
| Quote: | | And besides, every rat has a gender. If I killed a rat would you call me a murderer? |
| Quote: | 7. They both a have a body that is animate by their DNA
So what. So do deer and salmon, but we hunt and kill them all the time. Are you honestly saying that fetuses having DNA is a good reason for outlawing abortion? Would you call me a murderer if I shot a deer or caught a fish? |
| Quote: | No difference between a baby and a zygote except.... size and apperance... and place of residence
Listen to yourself! What your saying is absurd! There are MASSIVE differences between a baby and a zygote. For one, the baby has a functioning nervous system. It has FEELINGS. A zygote is completely incapable of feeling ANYTHING. It doesn't even have a brain! it doesn't even have sensory neurons! It is missing all of the important things that make humans special!" |
actually we all have a genetic pattern that makes up most of our personality the rest is merely social conditioning.
| Quote: | | "For example, it would be pretty silly to look at a female fetus and call it a 'little girl'. |
why would that be silly?
Is the z,e,f not little and is the gender not female... do we not usually call young little females "little Girls" its no sillier than Calling a 5 year old female a "little girl"
| Quote: | | "For one, the baby has a functioning nervous system." |
the z,e,f has a nervous system too and given time it will function just like yours.
| Quote: | | "A zygote is completely incapable of feeling ANYTHING. " |
our ability to feel dosnt make us human beings a paraplegic cant feel anything and he is still a human being.
| Quote: | | "It doesn't even have a brain!" |
yes it does, it has got a brain from the very moment of conception the brain is present in the genetic make up.
| Quote: | | " it doesn't even have sensory neurons" |
they are presant too.
| Quote: | | "It is missing all of the important things that make humans special!" |
it is missing nothing that makes a human special... everything that makes you you was presant at the very moment you were concieved. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6108
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | | P123456790 wrote: | | It doesn't even have a brain! |
yes it does, it has got a brain from the very moment of conception the brain is present in the genetic make up. |
No. Just because it has the genetic information for a brain does not mean it actually has a brain.
| nobody important wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | it doesn't even have sensory neurons |
they are presant too. |
Again, no. Just because it has the genetic information for sensory neurons does not mean it actually has sensory neurons.
| nobody important wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | It is missing all of the important things that make humans special! |
it is missing nothing that makes a human special... everything that makes you you was presant at the very moment you were concieved. |
Actually our genetics don't really do much as far as making us special. Experiences do.
"UNBORN CHILDREN" have no experiences.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
| Quote: | | "It is missing all of the important things that make humans special!" |
it is missing nothing that makes a human special... everything that makes you you was presant at the very moment you were concieved. |
What are you talking about? I am the sum total of my body, my thoughts, my ideas, my feelings, as well as my experiences. A zygote has neither a body nor thoughts nor ideas nor feelings (emotional or sensory) nor experiences. Zygotes are missing ALL of the important stuff!
You seem to think that DNA is the ONLY thing that makes humans special!!!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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nobody important
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "You seem to think that DNA is the ONLY thing that makes humans special!!!" |
esentially it is also a few other things such as chromosomes etc the only thing that makes us human beings is our biological make up!
Without it we wouldnt be human beings at all... despite whatever ideas or experiances we may have. Ideas and experiances dont make us human beings or make human beings special or allow those with better or more ideas and more experiance kill those with no or very few Ideas and experiences.... What makes a human being special is his/her species and that is determinable from biology. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | | Quote: | | "You seem to think that DNA is the ONLY thing that makes humans special!!!" |
esentially it is also a few other things such as chromosomes etc the only thing that makes us human beings is our biological make up!
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Chromosomes are DNA!
| nobody important wrote: |
Without it we wouldnt be human beings at all... despite whatever ideas or experiances we may have. Ideas and experiances dont make us human beings or make human beings special or allow those with better or more ideas and more experiance kill those with no or very few Ideas and experiences.... What makes a human being special is his/her species and that is determinable from biology. |
You're ignoring a lot of stuff here. Every skin cell and hair follicle of yours has your ENTIRE genetic blueprint in it, but you don't think that they are human beings. Being human is a lot more special than can be quantified by giving a string of As, Cs, Gs, and Ts.
The essence of mankind is to be able to think and feel. It is this what separates us from the animals and makes us special. A zygote is therefore less special than a human that has finished developing, because a zygote doesn't have any experiences. It cannot think or feel or do any of the things that are the essential ingredients in mankind's 'essence'.
You're just ignoring all of this. It's like you're saying that the biochemistry inside our cells is the only thing that matters.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5159
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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P123, you leave that little zygote, till birth what kind of animal you think maybe we'll have? Maybe a little puppy? 
_________________
Much Love Nobby
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Zygotes are potential humans. They are not themselves humans. In the same way, sperm cells and eggs are potential humans.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | P123, you leave that little zygote, till birth what kind of animal you think maybe we'll have? Maybe a little puppy? |
I agree that a human zygote will eventually turn into a real human if nothing happens to it and the pregnancy turns out 'normally'. This isn't the issue and never has been.
The issue is whether or not the actual zygote is a human being, and I claim that it isn't. Ana puts it very well; it's just a potential human.
Just like a bunch of lumber is a potential house.
Would you look at pile of wood and drywall and call it a house? NO! So why would you do so with humans?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5159
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| P123 wrote: | Just like a bunch of lumber is a potential house.
Would you look at pile of wood and drywall and call it a house? NO! So why would you do so with humans? |
"P," I asume you are talking about enough lumber, drywall & all that is required to build a house? P123, who would go this far if they didn't intend to build?
How can you compare stopping a birth to not bulding a building?
P123, what about the ones that go till it is time for birth & some Doc turns the baby boy/girl around & brings it out feet first! Just before they bring the head out, they use a tool to suck out the brain.
That's what I think of the laws on this subject! 
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: |
"P," I asume you are talking about enough lumber, drywall & all that is required to build a house? P123, who would go this far if they didn't intend to build?
How can you compare stopping a birth to not bulding a building? |
I'm not comparing them in any moral sense. I'm comparing them in a technical sense. I claim that a fetus is a 'potential human'. It is a 'work in progress'. The end result will be a human, but a fetus isn't a human yet. It's the same as a house, which also goes through several stages of development. At first you have the pile of lumber and cement bags stage, then you have a frame, then you have the drywall put in, then the insulation, windows, roof, wiring, etc.
This is a particularly apt analogy, because if someone were to burn down the house, then the amount of jail time they should serve depends very much on which stage of development the house is in. If you burn a pile of lumber, it isn't nearly as bad a crime as if you burn a finished house.
It really comes down to how much work and effort has been invested in the house, and the same holds for a baby. At first the baby is just a few cells, and the mother really doesn't have much of an investment in it. As it grows, the mother invests more and more energy in it. She gets sick, she gets back pains, her feet swell, etc. Eventually she has to go childbirth (which is no picnic) to deliver the baby. Then she really bonds with it. So like I said, aborting a fetus after a few weeks (ie. after the mother hasn't invested anything in it) isn't nearly as traumatic or serious as if the baby were to be killed later on.
| Nobby wrote: |
P123, what about the ones that go till it is time for birth & some Doc turns the baby boy/girl around & brings it out feet first! Just before they bring the head out, they use a tool to suck out the brain.
That's what I think of the laws on this subject! |
Now you're asking a completely different question. I happen to agree that partial birth abortions are nasty and I find them to be highly distasteful, and much harder to defend.
I think that if women are going to get abortions, then they should get them early on (ie. in the first trimester) if possible. And incidentally, this is when the majority of women do have their abortions.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6108
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | "P," I asume you are talking about enough lumber, drywall & all that is required to build a house? P123, who would go this far if they didn't intend to build?
How can you compare stopping a birth to not bulding a building? |
To keep up with the analogy, perhaps they're unable to pay the builders?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5159
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | To keep up with the analogy, perhaps they're unable to pay the builders? |
Yes FFT I would say that, that has happened more than once!
they could have had something drastic come up & they run out of money!
But most level headed people would have already had a contract signed & sealed to have the house built. Don't you think?
Sorry of topic!
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Frank1
House Cat
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 167
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Nobby, your excessive use of smiling emoticons has become very distractive.
Please consider this a warning
 |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5159
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Please consider this a warning |
So Frank, your now warning me not to use smillie figures?  That's rich! What's the matter does the little smillie bother you! 
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Much Love Nobby
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | But most level headed people would have already had a contract signed & sealed to have the house built. Don't you think? |
That's just it... When it comes to getting pregnant, most people aren't level-headed. How many people prepare adequately for parenthood?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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