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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But you could say this about a dog fetus as well! So why don't you consider it to be multiple-murder when someone kills a pregnant dog?!? |
well if the *sometimes angry female* is in pup and someone kills the *sometimes angry female* and as a result the puppies die then I do regard that person as killing multiple canines.
I think it would be horid too However I dont place as much value on the canine species as I do the human species.
| Quote: | This is true of every single cell in every single living creature on the entire planet. You aren't pointing out anything special about humans here. All you're pointing out is that DNA and life on Earth are pretty cool.
This is NOT an argument for why humans are special and why killing fetuses should be considered murder.
Why is it murder to abort a human fetus, but not murder to abort, say, a horse fetus? |
again I think the killing of unborn animals is awful especially if it is done out of willful animal cruilty... I believe we have a duty towards animals including unborn animals, I think guidlines should be implimented to protect animal fetus' too...up to a point that is.... However I do not place as much value on a horse, Dog, Cat or any other living animal as I do human beings... I believe it is actual murder killing a human being and I see killing animals needlessly as horid but not muder.... muder only applies to the killing of ones own species. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
well if the *sometimes angry female* is in pup and someone kills the *sometimes angry female* and as a result the puppies die then I do regard that person as killing multiple canines.
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But a second ago you were saying that killing human fetuses is murder because they have DNA. I pointed out that dogs have DNA, and now you agree that killing dog fetuses is not murder. So really your original argument about humans having DNA had nothing to do with the subject at hand. It was not an argument against killing human fetuses.
| nobody important wrote: |
I think it would be horid too However I dont place as much value on the canine species as I do the human species.
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YES! Now we're getting somewhere! Instead of talking about DNA and eye colour and how the fetus is developing, you've given your true reason behind why you think abortion is wrong. I believe that your entire position can be summed up very clearly by saying:
1. The Catholic church says that an egg becomes a human being as soon as it is fertilized.
2. The church is always right, so this must be the case.
3. Killing human beings is murder, and a the Church says that a zygote is a human being, so therefore killing a zygote is murder.
Forget all of this nonsense about DNA and development and growth. Those are not your reasons for opposing abortion. As far as I can tell, you have one and only one reason for opposing abortion: because the Church says it is murder.
This is the one and only reason you have for opposing abortion. If the Church had never said that it's murder, then you would have no arguments for opposing abortion.
So really, the question comes down to this: why do you trust the people in the Church who tell you that abortion is murder. They're just people, and people make mistakes all the time. Why do you believe that they have interpreted God's will correctly? |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "But a second ago you were saying that killing human fetuses is murder because they have DNA. I pointed out that dogs have DNA, and now you agree that killing dog fetuses is not murder. So really your original argument about humans having DNA had nothing to do with the subject at hand. It was not an argument against killing human fetuses. " |
they are human beings because they are living growing and have unique human DNA.
I dont doubt that a unborn canine is a canine or that they have canine DNA... the DNA makes you what you are a canine has canine dna and a human being has human Dna... the difference is the value we place on human beings vs animals. I have a lot of respect for animals I am an animal lover I have 4 dogs and a horse I have the utmost respect for them and love them dearly all of them. Paddy the Dog is the oldest of our dogs and I am very close to him he is like a member of the family but I would put a gun to hius head and shoot him dead if it meant it would save the life of a human being any human being. I value human life above animal life.
| Quote: | "YES! Now we're getting somewhere! Instead of talking about DNA and eye colour and how the fetus is developing, you've given your true reason behind why you think abortion is wrong. I believe that your entire position can be summed up very clearly by saying:
1. The Catholic church says that an egg becomes a human being as soon as it is fertilized.
2. The church is always right, so this must be the case.
3. Killing human beings is murder, and a the Church says that a zygote is a human being, so therefore killing a zygote is murder." |
actually you have it all wrong, it was my pro life beliefs that lead me to become a born again Christian. My possition is this
1. The unborn person is a living, growing Human being from the moment of conception... this is a biological fact.
2. I believe killing innocent human beings is murder...even killing guilty human beings is murder.
3. therefore killing the unborn person is murder.
"why do you trust the people in the Church who tell you that abortion is murder. They're just people, and people make mistakes all the time. Why do you believe that they have interpreted God's will correctly?"
this is a religious question , you must expect a religious answer so far I have kept religion out of this as much as possible except when asked previously.
The reason I trust the magestirum.. the holy see has nothing to do with abortion it has to do with scripture.. I fell in love with Jesus Christ, his love his compassion his mercy his words his faithfulness and his zeal everything about him really... if there ever was or is a god then Jesus is my God and so I listened to him and I heard what he said to his apostles...
"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"
" I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. "
"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth."
"when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come"
When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority
As the Father has sent me, I am sending you
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy.
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter(rock), and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
the reasons for my trust in the church is Jesus' words.
I know that it is only the Catholic church and not others because.
It is only the catholic church that has both Apostolic succession and a papal succesion back to Peter.
I dont for one minute believe that the holy see is made up of perfect men or that they cant make mistakes. But in matters of faith and morals united under the papal office they can not err because of Jesus' promises and I believe Jesus.
It was my pro life beliefs that co-incided with the Churches teaching on abortion that made me look deeper into Christianity... I knew this was truth that they proclaimed so I read Jesus and found that he was truth and that they were proclaiming Jesus in proclaiming the truth about abortion and as I read I fell in love with the Truth... Jesus Christ.... his actions, his teachings his life and message and so I became a born again catholic a church i knew already proclaimed the Truth about abortion from my own prolife possition. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody wrote: | | I dont doubt that a unborn canine is a canine or that they have canine DNA... the DNA makes you what you are a canine has canine dna and a human being has human Dna... the difference is the value we place on human beings vs animals. I have a lot of respect for animals I am an animal lover I have 4 dogs and a horse I have the utmost respect for them and love them dearly all of them. Paddy the Dog is the oldest of our dogs and I am very close to him he is like a member of the family but I would put a gun to hius head and shoot him dead if it meant it would save the life of a human being any human being. I value human life above animal life. |
have i ever told you i love you?...i do...just so you know...  |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ps...i like horseys... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
actually you have it all wrong, it was my pro life beliefs that lead me to become a born again Christian. |
I'm confused... So you're not Catholic? |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm confused... So you're not Catholic? |
When I say born again Christian I dont mean the protestant denomination.. I mean i was reborn as a Christian, refashioned even renamed |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm confused... So you're not Catholic? |
When I say born again Christian I dont mean the protestant denomination.. I mean i was reborn as a Christian, refashioned even renamed |
I did not realize that the whole concept of being 'born again' was sanctioned by the Catholic Church... It certainly is not a Catholic idea.
It sounds to me like you are picking and choosing which parts of Catholicism to practice, which brings into question why you choose to follow their teachings on abortion... |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "I did not realize that the whole concept of being 'born again' was sanctioned by the Catholic Church... It certainly is not a Catholic idea.
It sounds to me like you are picking and choosing which parts of Catholicism to practice, which brings into question why you choose to follow their teachings on abortion..." |
Not a catholic Idea?
Your so way off beam. Instead of judging what is and is not catholic based on your limited knowledge of the faith why not be open to learn differently.
The whole "born again" is not a doctrine that is determined by the catholic church it was determined by Christ himself
"unless a man be born again he can not see the kingdom"
A catholic is born again not just once but numerous times and in a number of different ways.
1. Baptism
2. As we enter the church building we bless ourselves with holy water...not a re-baptism as such but a spiritual cleansing non the less and a rebirth
3. durring the penitential rite durring mass lesser sins are forgiven and we are reborn.
4. Holy communion forgives lesser sins...we are reborn
5. reconciliation forgivess all sins - we are born again.
6. confirmation - we are baptised in the spirit...all sins are forgiven..we are reborn
7. last rites forgive all sins...we are reborn
observation of mercy sunday has the same effects as baptism..it removes all sin and need for reperation.but is not a re-baptism
The church believes in rebirth being born again it is very much a part of our faith and is central to the faith.. unlike some protestant faith we do not hold to the idea of once saved always saved we therefore can die spiritually and the sacraments give us the means to be reborn spiritually...as many times as we need to be ....these sacraments are channels of Christ's grace and mercy are not to be abused. A contrite heart is required. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. I was always under the impression that being 'born again' was a protestant notion that was particularly indigenous to North America.
But if I'm wrong, then that's fine. I am happy to admit as much and learn something new. |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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P321 your not entriely wrong, you are confusing christian beiefs with the name of a protestant fellowship
there is a protestant fellowship who call themselves "born again christians" and I do believe they are primarly north american...however it dosnt mean the idea of being born again is a protestant idea, or that only those who are members of the fellowiship are born again... being reborn is a belief that crosses all 3 christian faiths and has been a belief since christ uttered those sacred words of his. It has been part of the catholic faith/orthodox faith since our inaugeration as the church of christ way back in AD 33. Its been part of the protestant faith since its inception via the reformation circa 1500 AD. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, fair enough. Sorry about the mix up. |
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dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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I apologeize if I'm jumping in the debate late, but this topic was recently active.
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Why do pro-lifers consider abortion to be murder, but they don't consider contraception to be murder? |
Not all pro-lifers are against the abortion for the same reasons. I'm not pro-life now, but I use to be for four years. I was against abortion because I thought a newborn was killed because someone told me that abortion is a killing of a baby. I wasn't against contraception because there wasn't a pregnancy to terminate. No pregnancy, no abortion need. Contraception a-ok with me as a lifer...just like my mom when she was pro-life.
| Quote: | | A sperm is one cell, and an egg is one cell. When they come together, the result is still just one cell. Why are the two reproductive cells not considered to be "alive" or have souls, but the fertilized egg is? |
I thought they were alive. However, abortion was worst to me then than contraception was.
| Quote: | | After all, contraception and abortion have EXACTLY the same result, namely that a child that otherwise would have been born doesn't get born. Both cause a baby that otherwise would have existed to not exist. |
Wrong...because implanation is prevented. Without implanation, there isn't a pregnancy in the first place. Just because there is a fertile egg doesn't mean a woman is pregnant automatically. Hell, women can loose fertile eggs just from a simple menestration cycle.
You're pregnant when the egg has implanted. Without pregnancy, there isn't an abortion.
| Quote: | | So why is contraception not murder, but abortion is? |
Because contraception is preventing the pregnancy from happening in the first place. That's what it does is to prevent pregnancy. Despite I use to think abortion was murder, abortion is defined as the termination of a pregnancy. If pregnancy is prevented, then how can contraception be considered murder when there's no pregnancy taking place yet?
| Quote: | | And why stop there? Let's say a couple decides that they're not in the mood one night, and the result is that a child that otherwise would have been conceived doesn't get conceived. Why isn't that murder? |
Because if nothing is concieved, there's nothing to kill in the first place. So, how can it be murder if nothing was killed otherwise?
| Quote: | Let's say a woman is going to have one child during her lifetime. Consider these two scenarios:
1. She gets pregnant, has an abortion, gets pregnant later, and has the child.
2. She gets pregnant, has the child, and then doesn't get pregnant later because she's had her baby and now uses contraception.
In the first case, she aborted the first child, and in the second case she did the equivalent of aborting the second child. |
no she didn't. See, that's the problem. Some lifers consider contraception to be an abortificant when it's not. Any contraceptive's objective is to prevent pregnancy from happening. The medical and dictionary definition of abortion is the termination of pregnancy, regardless if someone thinks it's murder or not.
If she uses contraception to prevent a pregnancy, it's not like aborting because there's nothing to abort in the first place. You can't have an abortion if you don't have a pregnancy. I know some lifers are against that, but the majority of lifers seem to support that.
| Quote: | | Do you see the point I am trying to make? |
No because most lifers do support contraception because it does prevent pregnancy. Without a pregnancy, there won't be a need for abortion. Pro-lifers, in general, are against abortion...regardless if you're religious or not.
However, most pro-lifers support contraception becasue it does prevent pregnancy from happening. The pro-lifers that are against it are usually extremely religious like catholics.
| Quote: | | I claim that conception is an arbitrary point to call the causing of the non-existence of a child to be murder. If you're being caused to non-exist, it doesn't really matter to you if it happened before or after conception; in either case the result is the same from the "victim's" point of view. |
Not really. Contraception prevents implanation from happening period. Abortion is the termination of an actual pregnancy. How can something be seen as murder if there's nothing to kill in the first place?
And if that's the case, then menestration would be seen as murder too since many fertilized eggs are being flushed out without ever implanting. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Where does human life start? |
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The point is that abortion and contraception have exactly the same end-result: they cause a person who otherwise would have existed to not exist. Do you agree with this statement?
| dramatic_n_comedic_lynn wrote: |
And if that's the case, then menestration would be seen as murder too since many fertilized eggs are being flushed out without ever implanting. |
That's my point. By not getting pregnant, a woman causes a baby that otherwise would have existed to not exist. Therefore every time a woman has her period, that's one more child that won't be born.
This is the same thing that pro-lifers say about abortion doctors: "That's one more child that won't be born."
So why do pro-lifers picket abortion clinics, and not, say, sanitary napkin factories? |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| P123, believe it or not, that is the excuse some use against men who masturbate. We're wasting sperm, we're killing potential babies! |
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