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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: KEEP ABORTION LEGAL |
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I have come up with a super dooper plan to
KEEP ABORTION LEGAL
and at the sametime satisfy the pro life out cry.
Pro choice attest that the right to a legal abortion is part of a womans right to bodily attonomy.
Fair do's..... I see their point.
Pro life attest that abortion kills an unborn child
Fair do's.... I see their point.
And so I now nominate myself to be the next president of the United States of America...To those of you who are Pro Choice....Vote for me.... I promise Abortion on demand up until the 9th month and even partial birth Abortion will always remain legal and WILL have the full protection of the law
Now pro life people do not feel left out, please vote for me and I will grant all unborn human beings the right to life and protection under the law if any person kills an unborn child they will be punished to the full extent of the law every time and imprisoned for the full lengh of their life without chance of parole.
AND SO
MY MANIFESTO IS
1. Legalise all forms of abortion so woman can have rights over their body
2. Make killing unborn children ilegal so that a womans right over her body can not infringe on the unborn childs right to life.
Everyones happy right?  |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah that makes perfect sense  |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: KEEP ABORTION LEGAL |
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| nobody important wrote: |
1. Legalise all forms of abortion so woman can have rights over their body
2. Make killing unborn children ilegal so that a womans right over her body can not infringe on the unborn childs right to life.
Everyones happy right? |
The funny part is that the Bible doesn't even condemn abortion. You can't even find any SCRIPTURAL support for your pro-life views. Your opinions aren't even Christian!
All you've got is some irrational argument that embryos / zygotes / fetuses are children. You can't even bring forth any religious arguments!!! |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The funny part is that the Bible doesn't even condemn abortion. You can't even find any SCRIPTURAL support for your pro-life views. Your opinions aren't even Christian!
All you've got is some irrational argument that embryos / zygotes / fetuses are children. You can't even bring forth any religious arguments!!! |
oh really?
You see as a Catholic I follow not only sacred scripture but also sacred tradition as passed down by the apostles of Jesus Christ throughout history here is one such document...The teaching of the original 12 apiostles..... I believe the part that will interest you is Chapter 2 - line 3
There may not be direct biblical opposition to abortion but that dosnt mean it isnt christian!
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
There may not be direct biblical opposition to abortion but that dosnt mean it isnt christian! |
The Didache is a controversial document which is rejected by a huge number of Christians. In fact, there are good arguments against it. For example, it is rejected by Nicephorus in Stichometria.
Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stichometry_of_Nicephorus
Besides which, if God really teaches that abortion is wrong, then I assert he would have done at least one of two things:
1. Explicitly put it into the Bible.
2. At least stated that the soul enters the body at conception in the Bible so that we can figure out that abortion is wrong on our own.
But there ISN'T anything against abortion in the Bible, and it is the holy book of Christianity. It is your moral guide. If something that is supposedly so heinous is not mentioned in it, then you can be pretty sure that it wasn't omitted by accident. Abortions were a widely-practiced medical procedure during antiquity. If Jesus and God really thought that they were evil acts of murder, then they would have tried to stop them and put explicit commandments against them into the Bible. They didn't, and that says a lot. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Abortions were a widely-practiced medical procedure during antiquity. |
This is true.
You know the heart shape? It's based on the shape of the seeds of the silphium plant, which was in ancient times used as a method of birth control and likely also an abortifacient. More |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Abortions were a widely-practiced medical procedure during antiquity. |
This is true.
You know the heart shape? It's based on the shape of the seeds of the silphium plant, which was in ancient times used as a method of birth control and likely also an abortifacient. More |
I wonder why it went extinct...
Still, is it AT ALL conceivable that early Christians (and Jesus Himself) thought that abortion was a heinous act of baby-murder, but that they forgot to mention it in the Bible?!? They were almost certainly aware of the practice. And even if they weren't, then God WAS. The whole Bible is inspired by Him, and there isn't a single passage in any of its scriptures which condemns it.
Just look at the minute details that they go into about what you can and can't eat and when it's ok to do all sorts of trivial things. But for some reason, what NI calls 'child murder' never even gets mentioned...
There is only one reasonable conclusion to come to: God does not consider abortions to be murder. |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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The whole of Apostolic tradition is contraversial with many Christians rejecting it however the majority of Christians do accept it.
"Hold fast to the traditions you recieve from us"
- The bible
The didache is the teaching of the apostles of Christ it comes from the men who lived their lives following Jesus Christ.... you cant get much more Christian than that.
"if God really teaches that abortion is wrong, then I assert he would have done at least one of two things: "
well you have to remember that he left the church as the authority not the bible, the bible gets its authority from the church... it is the church that proclaimes it as the word of God.
The bible although isnt clear on the issue of Abortion it is easy enough to come to a pro life conclusion from it also it also suggests life and ensoulment begins at conception
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Gen 25-24
"When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. "
"He will bless the fruit of your womb"
"Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. "
"If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave! "
"Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? "
"from my mother's womb you have been my God. "
"Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. "
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. "
"he who made you, who formed you in the womb"
" I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart"
"For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave,"
"In the womb he grasped his brother's heel"
"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy"
I think there is enough evidence from the bible to make an argument against abortion and with the teaching of the apostles in the didache it is a solid undesputable argument that to be Christian is pro life and to be otherwise is unchristian. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
"When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. "
"He will bless the fruit of your womb"
"Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. "
"If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave! "
"Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? "
"from my mother's womb you have been my God. "
"Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. "
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. "
"he who made you, who formed you in the womb"
" I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart"
"For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave,"
"In the womb he grasped his brother's heel"
"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy"
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None of these quotes even come close to proving that ensoulment happens at conception. For all we know, they're all talking about the human body as a vessel. And even if you believe that they are saying that fetuses have souls, it certainly doesn't say WHEN ensoulment happens. Let's say that ensoulment happens in the last trimester, which is perfectly compatible with your quotes. Since most abortions are performed during the first trimester, abortions still isn't wrong, since it doesn't kill a human being with a soul.
| nobody important wrote: |
I think there is enough evidence from the bible to make an argument against abortion and with the teaching of the apostles in the didache it is a solid undesputable argument that to be Christian is pro life and to be otherwise is unchristian. |
I claim that if abortion really was the heinous crime you think it is, then it would be EXPLICITLY condemned in the Bible. But it isn't. |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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P321
You have your opinion your beliefs and I have my beliefs which are backed up by biological facts I dont want to take away a womans right to have an abortion... I just want the unborn CHILD to be given his right to life and his right to life to be protected by law....lets just leave it at that eh |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
You have your opinion your beliefs and I have my beliefs which are backed up by biological facts |
Your 'beliefs' are not backed up by biological facts. You're trying to bamboozle everyone here into thinking that your opinions are somehow based on science. They are not, so stop throwing around words like 'biological' and 'geneticist' and so on.
Embryos and zygotes and fetuses are NOT children. They aren't even babies!
Science has established a very clear nomenclature for embryonic development. Just the first part of the 'blob' stage has more names than I would care to remember:
When you look at pictures of early embryonic development, you can't even tell what species it is. You can't even tell which genus it is!
So stop pretending that you have science on your side! You don't!
| nobody important wrote: |
I dont want to take away a womans right to have an abortion...
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Wrong. This is EXACTLY what you want. And if you get what you want, you'll be making the world a worse place by making it even more overpopulated with the most destructive species which has ever lived. |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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since when did our apperance make us human.... Is the elephant man really an elephant?
Are ugly people worth less than Good looking people.
Its not apperance that makes us human beings and worthy or respect and rights including the right to life. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | since when did our apperance make us human.... Is the elephant man really an elephant?
Are ugly people worth less than Good looking people.
Its not apperance that makes us human beings and worthy or respect and rights including the right to life. |
Who said anything about appearance? Appearances are superficial. They don't matter. I don't care if someone is black or white, fat or thin, ugly or beautiful. All people should be considered equal under the law.
But the differences between an embryo and a fully-developed baby are NOT superficial.
What you're doing is totally unreasonable! You're looking at a clump of 200 cells and a baby that was just born and you're saying that they're the same thing!!! They aren't even remotely the same! |
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nobody important
Cobra
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What you're doing is totally unreasonable! You're looking at a clump of 200 cells and a baby that was just born and you're saying that they're the same thing!!! They aren't even remotely the same! |
yes they are the same even a single celled zygote
1. They are both human in species
2. They are both alive
3. They are both growing
4. They are both unique and individual
5. they both have a personlity
6. They both have a gender
7. They both a have a body that is animate by their DNA
From the very moment of your fertalization everything that makes you... you, was present... eyes, eye colour, Hair, hair colour, Gender, genetic personallity.
No difference between a baby and a zygote except.... size and apperance... and place of residence |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
1. They are both human in species
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My liver cells are also human in species. The only difference is that my liver has more human cells in it than a zygote does.
| nobody important wrote: |
2. They are both alive
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So are the geraniums on my window sill. If I killed them would you call me a murderer?
| nobody important wrote: |
3. They are both growing
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So are tulip bulbs. If I dug up a tulip bulb and incinerated it, would you call me a murderer?
| nobody important wrote: |
4. They are both unique and individual
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Every pet dog is also unique and individual. In fact, so is every bacterium. Being unique and individual is therefore not a sufficient condition for being 'special'. You wouldn't think twice about killing a bacterium even though it is unique.
| nobody important wrote: |
5. they both have a personlity
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First of all, this is just patently false. Not in anyone's wildest imagination does a zygote have a personality. But even if it did, that is not a reason for banning abortion. Every pet dog has a personality, and yet when they get rabies we have no problem putting them down. When humans get rabies, we don't put them down. So once again, personality is not a sufficient condition. If I killed a rabid dog, would you call me a murderer?
| nobody important wrote: |
6. They both have a gender
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So do cockroaches. Big deal. And a zygote only has gender in a technical sense because its genome either contains a Y chromosome or it doesn't. It doesn't have gender in any meaningful sense. For example, it would be pretty silly to look at a female fetus and call it a 'little girl'.
And besides, every rat has a gender. If I killed a rat would you call me a murderer?
| nobody important wrote: |
7. They both a have a body that is animate by their DNA
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So what. So do deer and salmon, but we hunt and kill them all the time. Are you honestly saying that fetuses having DNA is a good reason for outlawing abortion? Would you call me a murderer if I shot a deer or caught a fish?
| nobody important wrote: |
No difference between a baby and a zygote except.... size and apperance... and place of residence |
Listen to yourself! What your saying is absurd! There are MASSIVE differences between a baby and a zygote. For one, the baby has a functioning nervous system. It has FEELINGS. A zygote is completely incapable of feeling ANYTHING. It doesn't even have a brain! it doesn't even have sensory neurons! It is missing all of the important things that make humans special! |
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