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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8324
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | We're talking about a girl that would be in grade 3 or 4 here! |
Except that there, she wouldn't have ever been schooled.
| P1234567890 wrote: | Having sex with young girls who have barely mastered long division is just wrong.
And how do you rebutt that? |
My last girlfriend wasn't too good with math 
But then, there were only a very few, if any women in that time that could divide.
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Well, I did ask for a rebuttal...
| FFT wrote: |
And further, there is contention on the matter of how old she was even among relatively contemporary sources. Some place her age at twelve, some as high as nineteen. Before insisting that Mohammad must have been evil period you'd have to come to a conclusion about Aisha's age which is not necessarily possible. |
This is the crux of the matter. I think that Muslims have realized that they absolutely have to attack the arguments that she was 9 at the time when Mohammed had sex with her.
Apparently Aisha's own Hadith written by her says that she was 9 at the time... That's a pretty hard to argue against.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Apparently Aisha's own Hadith written by her says that she was 9 at the time... That's a pretty hard to argue against. |
Girls didn't know math 
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8324
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Apparently Aisha's own Hadith written by her says that she was 9 at the time... That's a pretty hard to argue against. |
Girls didn't know math |
Being as sexist as Islamic culture is, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has put this argument forth previously (without the smiley, though).
I'm willing to believe that Aisha was able to at least count up to ten, the assumption being that she had ten fingers.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | The Bible has a prettty detailed story of incest...Lot's daughters got him drunk and lay with him in order to carry on the family line (Gen 19:32). Everyone seems good with that and uses the story of Lot to show what "God fearing" man can do...but I don't think it's a good story to teach our kids.... |
This has been niggling in my mind for a while now, and so I'm glad you brought this up. Why shouldn't Christian parents teach their children everything in the bible?
My thoughts on the matter are that it's easier to fool children into believing you if you're consistent. It was quite a shock, as an adult, to read the non-children's (read: actual) version of Lot's story. As a child, all I was told was that Lot was the only good man in a bad town, so God saved him and his family and burned everyone else. God washed all the bad people away in a flood, burned out the bad people in Sodom and Gomorrah, and then promised never to kill off all his children again. I did not hear the version where Lot volunteers up his daughters to a mob of gay rapists, only to have them later sequestered with him in a cave, lusting for him (and consequently acting on that urge). If I'd heard the whole story, I probably would have been utterly horrified that people actually believe in a religion where Lot is a good guy!
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | The Bible has a prettty detailed story of incest...Lot's daughters got him drunk and lay with him in order to carry on the family line (Gen 19:32). Everyone seems good with that and uses the story of Lot to show what "God fearing" man can do...but I don't think it's a good story to teach our kids.... |
This has been niggling in my mind for a while now, and so I'm glad you brought this up. Why shouldn't Christian parents teach their children everything in the bible?
My thoughts on the matter are that it's easier to fool children into believing you if you're consistent. It was quite a shock, as an adult, to read the non-children's (read: actual) version of Lot's story. As a child, all I was told was that Lot was the only good man in a bad town, so God saved him and his family and burned everyone else. God washed all the bad people away in a flood, burned out the bad people in Sodom and Gomorrah, and then promised never to kill off all his children again. I did not hear the version where Lot volunteers up his daughters to a mob of gay rapists, only to have them later sequestered with him in a cave, lusting for him (and consequently acting on that urge). If I'd heard the whole story, I probably would have been utterly horrified that people actually believe in a religion where Lot is a good guy! |
In defense of Lot ( ), if you read the story... it was his daughters who got him drunk and had sex with him... not that it is a good thing... or anything close to that... but that is what the story implies.
Also, try walking in his daughters shoes for just a second here. The only thing they know is that God had previously destroyed the world through a flood, and now is pretty pissed at the world again. So, he destroys their city by fire... not water as He promised not too... and the only thing they know is that every man in the world is now dead... and they want to continue the human race...
Something to think about.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8324
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Something to think about. |
Here's something else to think about: Exactly how drunk does someone have to get in order to have sex with his daughters? If I had daughters, I'd like to think that I'd die of alcohol poisoning WELL before that happened...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Here's something else to think about: Exactly how drunk does someone have to get in order to have sex with his daughters? If I had daughters, I'd like to think that I'd die of alcohol poisoning WELL before that happened... |
I'd say pretty drunk!!! 
However, we still need to place our judgment in the a Biblical context. I'm not sure... but I'd bet the admonitions of incestuous relationships had not been prohibited at this time... I might be wrong... but I don't think so.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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If they thought they had to get their dad drunk to do this, then perhaps they realized it was wrong when they were attempting it.
But you're right - they're not touted as the good guys - Lot is. These girls survived the strife because they're Lot's property, good for using in attempts at protecting angels (who were probably not in need of protection) from gay rapists.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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BMZ
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | The Bible has a prettty detailed story of incest...Lot's daughters got him drunk and lay with him in order to carry on the family line (Gen 19:32). Everyone seems good with that and uses the story of Lot to show what "God fearing" man can do...but I don't think it's a good story to teach our kids.... |
| Ana wrote: |
This has been niggling in my mind for a while now, and so I'm glad you brought this up. Why shouldn't Christian parents teach their children everything in the bible?
My thoughts on the matter are that it's easier to fool children into believing you if you're consistent. It was quite a shock, as an adult, to read the non-children's (read: actual) version of Lot's story. As a child, all I was told was that Lot was the only good man in a bad town, so God saved him and his family and burned everyone else. God washed all the bad people away in a flood, burned out the bad people in Sodom and Gomorrah, and then promised never to kill off all his children again. I did not hear the version where Lot volunteers up his daughters to a mob of gay rapists, only to have them later sequestered with him in a cave, lusting for him (and consequently acting on that urge). If I'd heard the whole story, I probably would have been utterly horrified that people actually believe in a religion where Lot is a good guy! |
Thanks for the comments and observations, both of you. There is another horrible story of Judah and Tamar in Genesis 38 showing the purpose of propagating and pushing the seed, at any cost and whichever way that was possible.
I would like to write something on this topic of prophet Muhammad and Ayesha.
There is only one hadith from a man named Ibn Hisham and that is an unreliable hadith (Sayings). It made into the hadith collections and I do not know how. There is no saying from the prophet, Ayesha's father Abu Bakr or the Sahabaas (Companions of the prophet) at all on this subject, which shows how irrelevant it was.
Ibn Hisham's Hadith in the collections is like the chapter of Revelations which has really nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus but made an entry into the New Testament and was taken out quite a few times but was put back and it cannot be taken out now. Same goes for this rotten and confusing hadith of Ibn Hisham. It stays in the collections.
There is no record in the Arab History, customs or traditions or the culture that the Arabs gave their little daughters in marriage to older men. Nyet!
However, in the tribal culture, girls would be betrothed to men at a young age and once they were adults, they would go to huband's home.
During the persecution of the new Muslims by Meccans, there were some battles fought and one was known as the Battle at Badar. Prophet did not allow anyone under 14 to take part in battle. Young Muslim boys under 14, who wanted to fight for Islam against the attacking pagans, were not allowed to take part and were told to go home. In that battle, Ayesha was helping the injured and providing water for the thirsty.
This shows that at Badar, she was above 14 and note that she had not started living with prophet. She was thus definitely above 15 when the marriage was consummated.
A paedophile does not take only one child and finish his lust with her/him. The paedophile needs more and more. If one looks at the paedophiles arrested and imprisoned in Thailand, Cambodia and the Philippines, one would know that each paedophile went for as many as possible.
If the prophet of Islam, as accused by the pro-paedophiles, were such a person, the entire company of sahabaas and caliphs would have been reported as paedophiles.  The Arabs were more modern at that time than the 1,000 BC or the 1st century people. They would have killed the prophet there and then.
Hope this helped. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8324
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| BMZ wrote: |
A paedophile does not take only one child and finish his lust with her/him. The paedophile needs more and more. If one looks at the paedophiles arrested and imprisoned in Thailand, Cambodia and the Philippines, one would know that each paedophile went for as many as possible.
If the prophet of Islam, as accused by the pro-paedophiles, were such a person, the entire company of sahabaas and caliphs would have been reported as paedophiles. The Arabs were more modern at that time than the 1,000 BC or the 1st century people. They would have killed the prophet there and then.
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We have no idea whether or not Mohammed had sex with multiple children. Sex with children back then was totally normal. Besides, it's not like they had a police force, let alone an organized police force, let alone an SVU unit looking into his case.
It could easily be true that Mohammed was a ravenous pedophile and that everyone around him just turned a blind eye.
As for your explanations for Ayesha, a LOT of scholars disagree with your arguments.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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BMZ
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
We have no idea whether or not Mohammed had sex with multiple children. Sex with children back then was totally normal. Besides, it's not like they had a police force, let alone an organized police force, let alone an SVU unit looking into his case.
It could easily be true that Mohammed was a ravenous pedophile and that everyone around him just turned a blind eye.
As for your explanations for Ayesha, a LOT of scholars disagree with your arguments. |
Precisely, because you have no idea. In the most modern times, despite having an organised police force and SVU units, paedophilia is rampant in the most developed nations. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8324
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| BMZ wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
We have no idea whether or not Mohammed had sex with multiple children. Sex with children back then was totally normal. Besides, it's not like they had a police force, let alone an organized police force, let alone an SVU unit looking into his case.
It could easily be true that Mohammed was a ravenous pedophile and that everyone around him just turned a blind eye.
As for your explanations for Ayesha, a LOT of scholars disagree with your arguments. |
Precisely, because you have no idea. In the most modern times, despite having an organised police force and SVU units, paedophilia is rampant in the most developed nations. |
And it was even more rampant back then!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | BMZ wrote: |
A paedophile does not take only one child and finish his lust with her/him. The paedophile needs more and more. If one looks at the paedophiles arrested and imprisoned in Thailand, Cambodia and the Philippines, one would know that each paedophile went for as many as possible.
If the prophet of Islam, as accused by the pro-paedophiles, were such a person, the entire company of sahabaas and caliphs would have been reported as paedophiles. The Arabs were more modern at that time than the 1,000 BC or the 1st century people. They would have killed the prophet there and then.
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We have no idea whether or not Mohammed had sex with multiple children. Sex with children back then was totally normal. Besides, it's not like they had a police force, let alone an organized police force, let alone an SVU unit looking into his case.
It could easily be true that Mohammed was a ravenous pedophile and that everyone around him just turned a blind eye.
As for your explanations for Ayesha, a LOT of scholars disagree with your arguments. |
Honestly, do you believe that? What a load of cods wallop! He could have been an alien, but people preffered to keep quiet. Even though his is one of the most documented lives around.
What you are saying are basically baseless unjustified stupid comments and if I ask you to back them up, simply, you CANT!
Oooh look, more imaginary Scholars... 
Aisha herself says in an authentic (hassan) narration in Sunan al-Tirmidhi's Kitab al-Nikah that .... "When the girl reaches nine years of age she is a woman"
So this kinda negates the whole peodophilia thing... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8324
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
Aisha herself says in an authentic (hassan) narration in Sunan al-Tirmidhi's Kitab al-Nikah that .... "When the girl reaches nine years of age she is a woman"
So this kinda negates the whole peodophilia thing... |
Yeah, I'll bet the card-carrying members of NAMBLA tell themselves similar things...
I can't believe that you think this is a defense!!!
Do you seriously believe that 9-year-old girls are women?!? What the hell is the matter with you? 
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
Aisha herself says in an authentic (hassan) narration in Sunan al-Tirmidhi's Kitab al-Nikah that .... "When the girl reaches nine years of age she is a woman"
So this kinda negates the whole peodophilia thing... |
Yeah, I'll bet the card-carrying members of NAMBLA tell themselves similar things...
I can't believe that you think this is a defense!!!
Do you seriously believe that 9-year-old girls are women?!? What the hell is the matter with you? |
What exactly are we whinging about now? She herself says she was a woman at the time her marriage was consumated? |
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