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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Why are you so quick to throw in the red herring that I have some issue with her faith? |
It's a very reasonable logical consequence. |
It's an "irrelevant conclusion." Last I checked the important part of Christian faith was the whole "believe in Jesus" part. Why do you make it such a big issue when I try and point out where people are making mistakes on the little stuff?
| RevJP wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Suicide bombers, human sacrifices, witch burnings, and any number of other atrocities that are commited because of overzealousness all come to mind. |
Who said anything about overzealousness? Does faith equate to that in your mind? |
See? Here, you're overreacting again. You asked "What is so threatening to you about a person trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives?" Ana responded with past outcomes of just this, and now you're blowing it out of proportion.
And even if your out of proportion take on what she said is true, do you deny that many supposed Christians use their overzealousness on this subject to justify deplorable acts?
| RevJP wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | also that it's hypocritical for Haggard to condemn others for failing to overcome these instincts when he himself couldn't do it... |
cite examples please. |
Of which? Of condemnig others, or failing to overcome the instincts? Because he's done both.
Here's one, and he's admitted in writing to the other.
Where were you going with this? 
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Isn't there a process to follow?
If one in the church commits a sin, then we're supposed to send them out into the world, let the world condemn him/her, then when they repent we are supposed to forgive them and accept them back in..
I don't know if what he did physically in his body is more condemning, then that he lied and hid what he was doing.
Lord knows..
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Of which? Of condemnig others, or failing to overcome the instincts? Because he's done both.
Here's one, and he's admitted in writing to the other. |
Where? You've shown me nothing of him condemning anyone for anything.
| Quote: | | See? Here, you're overreacting again. |
I'm overreacting? 
Ana's response was replete with 'overreaction'.
I asked: What is so threatening to you about a person trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives?
and she jumped right into overzealousness and suicide bombers... and you tell me I overreacted.... 
| Quote: | | Ana responded with past outcomes of just this, and now you're blowing it out of proportion. |
Not so. Suicide bombing and human sacrifices are not past outcomes of someone trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives. It is an outcome of the nature of man and has been demonstrated in politics, religion, greed, etc. But has little to do with faith that brings about positive changes in one's life.
| Quote: | | Where were you going with this? |
I'm not going anywhere really. Are you going somewhere with it other than jumping at the chance to judge and condemn? People are faulty, faith doesn't make that go away even though you would like to convince everyone that those of faith are hypocrites unless they are perfect.
My bible tells me that I am not perfect, my bible tells me that I am to fight the good fight and I will grow to be more Christ-like through my faith, it never tells me that I am to be perfect now, or that I am even capable of it in this life. So I suppose I am going somewhere with it afterall...
I'm standing on the side of truth, and calling foul everytime you and yours try to paint condemnation over someone who stumbles.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | Of which? Of condemnig others, or failing to overcome the instincts? Because he's done both.
Here's one, and he's admitted in writing to the other. |
Where? You've shown me nothing of him condemning anyone for anything. |
Nice, you've picked out my first typo in a very long time.
"We've decided the Bible is the word of God. We don't have to have a general assembly about what we believe, it's written in the Bible. Alright? So, we don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity, it's written in the Bible. [looks at the camera] I think I know what you did last night. If you send me $1000 I won't tell your wife."
The only people that say you just take the Bible's word for it on homosexuality are the ones that deny (or are ignorant of) the historical context. Saying that "we don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity, it's written in the Bible" just means "ignore what those fag-enablers tell you about historical context, we're going with what the Bible says now no matter what."
It's a condemnation of others for homosexuality. And he failed to overcome his own homosexual instincts. And this is made all the more hilarious by people that insist that if you believe in Jesus He'll "cure" your homosexuality, since clearly Haggard believes in Jesus (right?) but remained a man-lover.
| RevJP wrote: | Ana's response was replete with 'overreaction'.
I asked: What is so threatening to you about a person trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives?
and she jumped right into overzealousness and suicide bombers... and you tell me I overreacted.... |
It's not overreaction, as she did point out that these were the outcomes of overzealousness. These have been the results of blind faith in the past, and there's no reason to believe that these things won't happen again seeing as they already do.
| RevJP wrote: | | Not so. Suicide bombing and human sacrifices are not past outcomes of someone trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives. |
What? Are you cracked? Of course they are. Suicide bombers trusted their God and that probably made positive changes in their lives until they ended them. Sacrificers trusted that their God wanted the sacrifice, and that belief make positive changes in their life when they were happy about how their latest sacrifice went.
You skipped this part of my response: | FFT wrote: | | And even if your out of proportion take on what she said is true, do you deny that many supposed Christians use their overzealousness on this subject to justify deplorable acts? |
Why?
| RevJP wrote: | | I'm not going anywhere really. Are you going somewhere with it other than jumping at the chance to judge and condemn? |
Merely to correct, though it doesn't look like that's going anywhere seeing as no one can admit to mistakes.
| RevJP wrote: | | People are faulty, faith doesn't make that go away even though you would like to convince everyone that those of faith are hypocrites unless they are perfect. |
No, just when they do exactly what Jesus told them not to. You don't have to be perfect for that.
| RevJP wrote: | | I'm standing on the side of truth, and calling foul everytime you and yours try to paint condemnation over someone who stumbles. |
So calling someone that is actually demonstrably completely a hypocrite a hypocrite is somehow wrong in your eyes?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Where to start?
First you say Haggard condemns others for something, then you provide your evidence consisting of him talking about what scripture says about it.... I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you err'd, the other option is intention deceipt.
| FFT wrote: |
And this is made all the more hilarious by people that insist that if you believe in Jesus He'll "cure" your homosexuality, since clearly Haggard believes in Jesus (right?) but remained a man-lover. |
This little gem is intentional deceipt. Provided, in my opinion, to contrive some sort of justification for you previous 'error'.
Speaking only of what was on this board; I have never seen anyone state that faith 'will cure' anyone of homosexual tendancies. I have seen assertions that faith can free one of that burden, but never that it will cure one. The interesting thing is that scripture tells us that faith can free one from the burdens of sin, from various afflictions, etc. We also have personal testimonies of people who have been freed through faith.
What I find amusing is that you, FFT, ignore the facts of the situation in order to keep espousing a lot of crap. You've twisted what people have said and have condemned another for something he didn't do.
| Quote: | | It's not overreaction, as she did point out that these were the outcomes of overzealousness. |
Which I pointed out did no apply to the question asked.
| Quote: | | These have been the results of blind faith in the past, and there's no reason to believe that these things won't happen again seeing as they already do. |
Indeed. Quite different than what I asked about, isn't it?
| Quote: | | What? Are you cracked? Of course they are. Suicide bombers trusted their God and that probably made positive changes in their lives until they ended them. |
I see. So you have nothing truthful to support this error, just another assumption.
| Quote: | You skipped this part of my response:
FFT wrote:
And even if your out of proportion take on what she said is true, do you deny that many supposed Christians use their overzealousness on this subject to justify deplorable acts?
Why? |
Irrelevance to the discussion at hand. A red herring, if you will.
| Quote: | | Merely to correct, though it doesn't look like that's going anywhere seeing as no one can admit to mistakes. |
You are right on this one Mr. Pot.
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No, just when they do exactly what Jesus told them not to. You don't have to be perfect for that. |
Really? and you know this how exactly?
| Quote: |
So calling someone that is actually demonstrably completely a hypocrite a hypocrite is somehow wrong in your eyes? |
You have failed miserably to demonstrate such, so you are wrong.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | First you say Haggard condemns others for something, then you provide your evidence consisting of him talking about what scripture says about it.... |
Oh, my bad. You're going with the copout "He's not condemning anyone, The Bible is" BS.
And then accusing me of deceit. Nice.
Let's see how Haggard describes homosexuality, shall we?
| Ted Haggard wrote: | The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.
I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach. |
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | And this is made all the more hilarious by people that insist that if you believe in Jesus He'll "cure" your homosexuality, since clearly Haggard believes in Jesus (right?) but remained a man-lover. |
This little gem is intentional deceipt. Provided, in my opinion, to contrive some sort of justification for you previous 'error'. |
In this very thread on page 2: | Nerina wrote: | | Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. I was convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit, I repented and turned away from it, and was cleansed and healed. What God did for me, He has done, can and will do for others. |
Further, living in the Bible Belt, I hear and see plenty of instances of Christians assuring the "lost" that Jesus can "cure" their homosexuality.
| RevJP wrote: | | Speaking only of what was on this board; I have never seen anyone state that faith 'will cure' anyone of homosexual tendancies. |
| Nerina wrote: | | Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. I was convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit, I repented and turned away from it, and was cleansed and healed. What God did for me, He has done, can and will do for others. |
Further, here in Memphis, I have heard people claim just that, that simply "having faith" will cure a homosexual.
| RevJP wrote: | | What I find amusing is that you, FFT, ignore the facts of the situation in order to keep espousing a lot of *poop-poop-e-do*. |
What I find amusing is that you've ignored the evidence within this thread and further made hilarious assumptions about where I'm getting this.
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | What? Are you cracked? Of course they are. Suicide bombers trusted their God and that probably made positive changes in their lives until they ended them. |
I see. So you have nothing truthful to support this error, just another assumption. |
 What, do I have to find testimonies for you?
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Merely to correct, though it doesn't look like that's going anywhere seeing as no one can admit to mistakes. |
You are right on this one Mr. Pot. |
Hello? Do you pay attention at all? I've admitted to mistakes here in the past, so now you're just making stuff up. "Intention deceipt" indeed.
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | No, just when they do exactly what Jesus told them not to. You don't have to be perfect for that. |
Really? and you know this how exactly? |
Because I've read the NT.
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | So calling someone that is actually demonstrably completely a hypocrite a hypocrite is somehow wrong in your eyes? |
You have failed miserably to demonstrate such, so you are wrong. |
Just because apparently I haven't demonstrated it effectively enough to you doesn't make me wrong. Further, just because you've got silly ideas as to what constitutes "condemning" someone doesn't make me wrong.
Just because Haggard used the Bible to condemn homosexuality doesn't mean that he magically somehow wasn't condemning homosexuality.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Oh, my bad. You're going with the copout "He's not condemning anyone, The Bible is" BS. |
It's not a copout, it the truth. Just because you argue in error doesn't mean the truth has to change.
You screwed up, deal.
| Quote: | RevJP wrote:
FFT wrote:
And this is made all the more hilarious by people that insist that if you believe in Jesus He'll "cure" your homosexuality, since clearly Haggard believes in Jesus (right?) but remained a man-lover.
This little gem is intentional deceipt. Provided, in my opinion, to contrive some sort of justification for you previous 'error'.
In this very thread on page 2:
Nerina wrote:
Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. I was convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit, I repented and turned away from it, and was cleansed and healed. What God did for me, He has done, can and will do for others.
Further, living in the Bible Belt, I hear and see plenty of instances of Christians assuring the "lost" that Jesus can "cure" their homosexuality. |
Do you even read what you quote?
Where did Nerina mention 'cure'? No where. She stated, quite clearly in easy to read words so people could not misunderstand (those that read what is written and not what they want to see anyway...) "set free by Jesus" She goes on to say she was cleansed and healed - of her sins.
You talk about 'cure' when no one else is.
| Quote: | | What I find amusing is that you've ignored the evidence within this thread and further made hilarious assumptions about where I'm getting this. |
What a joke. You've posted the very evidence that condemns you sir. I've pointed out the truth, and the facts. You are the one who can't seem to recognize what is right in front of you.
| Quote: | | What, do I have to find testimonies for you? |
You're very fond of asking others to cite their sources and provide proof - put up or shut up.
| Quote: | | Because I've read the NT |
Then read it again, you obviously have as much trouble with it as you do with what is posted in this thread.
| Quote: |
Just because apparently I haven't demonstrated it effectively enough to you doesn't make me wrong. Further, just because you've got silly ideas as to what constitutes "condemning" someone doesn't make me wrong. |
Very true. You are wrong anyway regardless of what you think of my ideas or your failure to support, in anyway whatsoever, your assertions.
con‧demn /kənˈdɛm/ [kuhn-dem]
–verb (used with object)
1. to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
My ideas aren't that silly. I used the word as it is defined and your actions were by definition, condemnation.
| Quote: | | Just because Haggard used the Bible to condemn homosexuality doesn't mean that he magically somehow wasn't condemning homosexuality. |
It's really easy. You said he was condemning homosexuals, I asked you to support that accusation. You failed. What's so hard to understand about that?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Oh, my bad. You're going with the copout "He's not condemning anyone, The Bible is" BS. |
It's not a copout, it the truth. Just because you argue in error doesn't mean the truth has to change. |
Just because someone uses the Bible to condemn something doesn't somehow make them somehow not condemning it as well.
| RevJP wrote: | | You screwed up, deal. |
This is going to be delicious.
| RevJP wrote: | Do you even read what you quote?
Where did Nerina mention 'cure'? No where. She stated, quite clearly in easy to read words so people could not misunderstand (those that read what is written and not what they want to see anyway...) "set free by Jesus" She goes on to say she was cleansed and healed - of her sins.
You talk about 'cure' when no one else is. |
There's a key word in what she said. I'll leave it to you to find it.
| RevJP wrote: | | What a joke. You've posted the very evidence that condemns you sir. I've pointed out the truth, and the facts. You are the one who can't seem to recognize what is right in front of you. |
Ironically enough you were just talking about the whole "pot, kettle" thing a little while back.
Further, even if I'm wrong about what Nerina was saying (and there's no reliable way to confirm this now that she's apparently abandoned the forum), I still have my own experiences with Christians in Memphis, who do insist that Jesus can "heal" or "cure" their homosexuality.
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | What, do I have to find testimonies for you? |
You're very fond of asking others to cite their sources and provide proof - put up or shut up. |
Here you go. | Quote: | | One day soon, this somber young man plans to offer up a final prayer and then blow himself up along with as many U.S. or Iraqi soldiers as he can reach. Marwan Abu Ubeida says he has been training for months to carry out a suicide mission. He doesn't know when or where he will be ordered to climb into a bomb-laden vehicle or strap on an explosives-filled vest but says he is eager for the moment to come. While he waits, he spends much of his time rehearsing that last prayer. "First I will ask Allah to bless my mission with a high rate of casualties among the Americans," he says, speaking softly in a matter-of-fact monotone, as if dictating a shopping list. "Then I will ask him to purify my soul so I am fit to see him, and I will ask to see my mujahedin brothers who are already with him." He pauses to run the list through his mind again, then resumes: "The most important thing is that he should let me kill many Americans." |
| Quote: | | Marwan asked his commander to consider him for a suicide mission last fall but had to wait until the beginning of April for his name to be put on the list of volunteers. "When he finally agreed," Marwan recalls, "it was the happiest day of my life." |
Now admit you were wrong.
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Because I've read the NT |
Then read it again, you obviously have as much trouble with it as you do with what is posted in this thread. |
Now that's odd. How come if I use a Christian Copout answer, you call me on it? That's a bit strange.
| RevJP wrote: | Very true. You are wrong anyway regardless of what you think of my ideas or your failure to support, in anyway whatsoever, your assertions.
con‧demn /kənˈdɛm/ [kuhn-dem]
–verb (used with object)
1. to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
My ideas aren't that silly. I used the word as it is defined and your actions were by definition, condemnation. |
Okay, let's use your definition to demonstrate why you're completely wrong.
"indicate strong disapproval of"
| Ted Haggard wrote: | The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.
I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach. |
Funny, that sounds exactly like expressing strong disapproval.
Now admit you were wrong.
| RevJP wrote: | | It's really easy. You said he was condemning homosexuals, I asked you to support that accusation. You failed. What's so hard to understand about that? |
Well, there's the part where I succeeded quite handily and yet you're just staying the course.
"Admit nothing, deny everything and make counteraccusations" sums up your position quite effectively.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Those flips and twists you do are pretty impressive FFT, nice gymnastics.
| Quote: | | Just because someone uses the Bible to condemn something doesn't somehow make them somehow not condemning it as well. |
Completely irrelevant. You specifically accused Haggard of condemning homosexuality and you have failed to demonstrate that he did. Yes indeed, he did share what the scriptures said about it, so in essence he was relaying what the bible said and made no claims or condemnations of his own. That was the original point with which you argued, and you were wrong.
| Quote: | | There's a key word in what she said. I'll leave it to you to find it. |
Sorry. I posted her quote exactly as she posted it and I addressed what she wrote according to what and how she wrote it. You invented meaning where there was none. Let me remind you of what I posted, at which you apparently took offense and felt it necessary to justify, unsuccessfully:So
| Quote: | Speaking only of what was on this board; I have never seen anyone state that faith 'will cure' anyone of homosexual tendancies. I have seen assertions that faith can free one of that burden, but never that it will cure one. The interesting thing is that scripture tells us that faith can free one from the burdens of sin, from various afflictions, etc. We also have personal testimonies of people who have been freed through faith.
What I find amusing is that you, FFT, ignore the facts of the situation in order to keep espousing a lot of *poop-poop-e-do*. You've twisted what people have said and have condemned another for something he didn't do. |
| Quote: | | Further, even if I'm wrong about what Nerina was saying (and there's no reliable way to confirm this now that she's apparently abandoned the forum), |
EVEN IF? there really is no question, you were, and are, wrong. Additionally, it is not important if she is here to confirm anything, what she wrote - which is what is being debated, is clearly printed for all to see. Now I can understand that you may want to delve into reasoning or some such, but that isn't the issue is it? We were discussing what was posted.
| Quote: | | I still have my own experiences with Christians in Memphis, who do insist that Jesus can "heal" or "cure" their homosexuality. |
So? what is the relevance to this discussion?
| Quote: | | Quote: | Quote:
One day soon, this somber young man plans to offer up a final prayer and then blow himself up along with as many U.S. or Iraqi soldiers as he can reach. Marwan Abu Ubeida says he has been training for months to carry out a suicide mission. He doesn't know when or where he will be ordered to climb into a bomb-laden vehicle or strap on an explosives-filled vest but says he is eager for the moment to come. While he waits, he spends much of his time rehearsing that last prayer. "First I will ask Allah to bless my mission with a high rate of casualties among the Americans," he says, speaking softly in a matter-of-fact monotone, as if dictating a shopping list. "Then I will ask him to purify my soul so I am fit to see him, and I will ask to see my mujahedin brothers who are already with him." He pauses to run the list through his mind again, then resumes: "The most important thing is that he should let me kill many Americans."
Quote:
Marwan asked his commander to consider him for a suicide mission last fall but had to wait until the beginning of April for his name to be put on the list of volunteers. "When he finally agreed," Marwan recalls, "it was the happiest day of my life." |
Now admit you were wrong. |
Hardly. Show me how, in any reasonable fashion, this quote demonstrates a faith that brings about positive changes in one's life. Is it because he said: "it was the happiest day of my life."?
Even for you that is a stretch....
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Now that's odd. How come if I use a Christian Copout answer, you call me on it? That's a bit strange. |
Different circumstance, and different intent, and different proof. I stated truthfully that the bible is expressing the condemnation of homosexual activity and that Haggard was teaching what the bible said and not expressing his own personal condemnation. You were speaking of the perfection of Christians and made a claim regarding the NT which is simply wrong, I asked you to support it - which you chose not to do, more than likely because you could not find scriptural support for your claims.
| Quote: | Funny, that sounds exactly like expressing strong disapproval.
Now admit you were wrong. |
I'll give you this one, simply because it is no longer worth the effort. Scripture condemns homosexuality, Haggard taught scripture.... If one wanted to twist it enough one could lay the condemnation on Haggard's doorstep.
"Admit nothing, deny everything and make counteraccusations" sums up your position quite effectively. Amazing how you are able to type responses on this site while staring in a mirror.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2852
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | If one in the church commits a sin, then we're supposed to send them out into the world, |
Say what?
(1 John 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(Galatians 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Matthew 18:15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Yehu
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RevJP
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Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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BTW FFT, between posting last night and coming home from work this morning, I found I have lost interest in this whole stupid discussion. Feel free to post whatever you want, but I will let you know beforehand that I wouldn't expect a response if I were you.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: |
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I'm sticking this at the top, because now that RevJP has conceded this is really the only important part.
| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Merely to correct, though it doesn't look like that's going anywhere seeing as no one can admit to mistakes. |
You are right on this one Mr. Pot. |
| RevJP wrote: | | "Admit nothing, deny everything and make counteraccusations" sums up your position quite effectively. Amazing how you are able to type responses on this site while staring in a mirror. |
What's unfortunate is that you continue to lie about this. 
I mean seriously, just search my posts for "fair enough" — it's my key phrase for "get ready to gloat, FFT's admitting a mistake!" I've admitted to at least one notable mistake to you personally, remember? The whole thing were I was taking the Leviticus passage on leprosy as a cure recipe even though it's just a ceremony? I mean, this even came up somewhat recently and you attacked me on it before reading what I was actually saying.
So I wonder, will you admit to this? Because I know that you know that I've admitted to mistakes in the past, and yet twice in this thread alone you've insisted that I don't. In case you're in need of a refresher, this is called lying.
I don't particularly relish accusing people of deception without proof, but you've damned yourself on this one.
| RevJP wrote: | | Those flips and twists you do are pretty impressive FFT, nice gymnastics. |
| RevJP wrote: | | Completely irrelevant. You specifically accused Haggard of condemning homosexuality and you have failed to demonstrate that he did. |
Only according to you, apparently. To me, "I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach" sounds exactly like "indicating strong disapproval" of homosexuality. You know, part of the definition for "condemn" that you posted. And I've pointed this out to you, and you didn't address it. I wonder why? 
| RevJP wrote: | | Yes indeed, he did share what the scriptures said about it, so in essence he was relaying what the bible said and made no claims or condemnations of his own. |
Except that he did in his letter without any mention that his personal condemnation of homosexuality was from the Bible.
| RevJP wrote: | | That was the original point with which you argued, and you were wrong. |
Except I've adequately stated my case, and you are simply ignoring the facts.
| RevJP wrote: | | Sorry. I posted her quote exactly as she posted it and I addressed what she wrote according to what and how she wrote it. You invented meaning where there was none. |
Do you understand what "heal" and "cure" mean? I'll give you a hint: the same thing. I'm not sure why you refuse to recognize this, but it's obnoxious.
| RevJP wrote: | | EVEN IF? there really is no question, you were, and are, wrong. |
Except that, as I will demonstrate again, Nerina did make the claim that faith will cure homosexuality. | Quote: | | Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. I was convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit, I repented and turned away from it, and was cleansed and healed. What God did for me, He has done, can and will do for others. |
Why are you so adamantly denying what's perfectly clear?
| RevJP wrote: | | Additionally, it is not important if she is here to confirm anything, what she wrote - which is what is being debated, is clearly printed for all to see. |
Ooh. Agreed.
| RevJP wrote: | | Now I can understand that you may want to delve into reasoning or some such, but that isn't the issue is it? We were discussing what was posted. |
Well, yes. What concerns me is your denial of what was clearly stated. And fair enough, you were just talking about this forum. I've seen several people insist that homosexuality is not genetic, and thus it would follow that they'd think it could be "cured." This is speculation, of course.
| RevJP wrote: | | Hardly. Show me how, in any reasonable fashion, this quote demonstrates a faith that brings about positive changes in one's life. Is it because he said: "it was the happiest day of my life."? |
Are you saying that being happy is not a positive change?
| RevJP wrote: | | Even for you that is a stretch.... |
"Even for me?" Nice.
| RevJP wrote: | | Different circumstance, and different intent, and different proof. I stated truthfully that the bible is expressing the condemnation of homosexual activity and that Haggard was teaching what the bible said and not expressing his own personal condemnation. You were speaking of the perfection of Christians and made a claim regarding the NT which is simply wrong, I asked you to support it - which you chose not to do, more than likely because you could not find scriptural support for your claims. |
My point originally was simply that Jesus describes a few easily-followed restrictions that become clear in conversation.
| RevJP wrote: | | I'll give you this one, simply because it is no longer worth the effort. Scripture condemns homosexuality, Haggard taught scripture.... If one wanted to twist it enough one could lay the condemnation on Haggard's doorstep. |
Even in defeat you're still trying to save face on this. He doesn't say "the Bible says" anything in his condemnation. He was speaking purely from his own experience — "There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve been warring against it all of my adult life." He is calling his homosexuality "repulsive and dark." Neither word is used to describe homosexuality in the Bible.
"Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach." He is calling his homosexual desires "dirt," which is not a way they are described in the Bible. He is saying that his homosexuality is against what he believes and what he teaches.
| RevJP wrote: | | BTW FFT, between posting last night and coming home from work this morning, I found I have lost interest in this whole stupid discussion. Feel free to post whatever you want, but I will let you know beforehand that I wouldn't expect a response if I were you. |
And now that you realize that you've lost utterly you're taking steps to limit whatever backlash that might result in.
You've completely ignored the evidence I've presented.
You've lied about me.
You've stretched and stretched, for whatever reason, to defend Haggard.
What's next?
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Ana wrote: |
Suicide bombers, human sacrifices, witch burnings, and any number of other atrocities that are commited because of overzealousness all come to mind. |
Who said anything about overzealousness? |
I said something about overzealousness.
| RevJP wrote: | | Does faith equate to that in your mind? |
Did I say it did? Overzealousness is a subset of results of faith - more specifically, it's one possible outcome of a person having faith in something that has a positive outcome in that person's life. The list of some things which I find threatening is from a subset of results of overzealousness.
Recap: Faith can lead to overzealousness, which can lead to the atrocities I mentioned.
Do not presume to put words in my mouth which weren't found there. Don't assume I meant that overzealousness equates with faith, for I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
Mountain out of a mole hill, indeed.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: | | If one in the church commits a sin, then we're supposed to send them out into the world, |
Say what?
(1 John 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(Galatians 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Matthew 18:15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Yehu |
take it up with Paul Yehu, I didn't write the letter...
1Cr 5:1 ¶ It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. (is homosexuality fornication?)
1Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
(even though Paul says he no longer judges after the flesh) so,
1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(Where is Satan so we can send him to him?)
1Cr 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed | | |
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