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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7000
Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I've never mentioned, nor assumed that God controls anyone's will. If God is truly omnipotent, and I know that He is, then there is no ONE way for Him to ensure that His Word is given to us as He intended it to be. Free-will (a wishful concept that) need not be an issue for nothing could prevent Him from accomplishing HIS will.
| Quote: | | You are assuming that just because God is believed to be all knowing and all powerful that he would control the free will of humans. |
Red herring.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I've never mentioned, nor assumed that God controls anyone's will. If God is truly omnipotent, and I know that He is, then there is no ONE way for Him to ensure that His Word is given to us as He intended it to be. Free-will (a wishful concept that) need not be an issue for nothing could prevent Him from accomplishing HIS will. |
Still no comment on my Sodom and Gomorrah reference? It is a reference I mentioned concerning the bible's portrayal of God's omniscience or all knowing power. If you do not believe in free will or whether or not God interrupts or intervenes in a human's will to choose, that's fine. It would seem though that if God's will is that every person be saved then it will come to pass since it is "his" will.
It would seem we've gotten off of topic. If you want to know what I mean when I say that the bible does not always mean what it says, read my post below. It's simply another way of saying don't always believe things at face value. In this case, when reading and/or listening. Have a great Tuesday.
HOW LANGUAGE IS INTERPRETED
(excerpt from The Children Are Free)
When the Supreme Court (or any other court) issues a written decision, the first question any good lawyer asks is: What is the 'holding' of the case?" The term "holding" refers to the rule established by the court's decision. Once this question is answered, we know what the case means, right?
Wrong! Every good lawyer knows that to stop the analysis after figuring out what rule the court established would constitute gross malpractice. There is a vital follow up question that must be asked: "What were the facts of the case?"
This second question is essential because judges and lawyers have learned through experience that you cannot truly understand a rule unless you also understand the context in which the rule was issued. Because of this, one of the first principles drilled into the head of every law student is that judicial holdings are limited to the facts of the case. In other words, you cannot take a rule that a judge issued in one context and automatically apply it to a different set of facts. Before this can be done, the facts of both cases must be carefully examined to determine whether they are similar enough for the rule to apply to both cases.
The methodology is not unique to lawyers. It is based on common sense and the way we use language in the ordinary ebb and flow of life. For example, suppose a married couple is talking and the wife says to her husband: "Don't touch me". She has announced a "rule". Now, suppose someone copies down this statement and hands it to us, saying, "These were her exact words". We now have the wife's words in front of us in black and white and that is all we need to interpret the meaning of her statement accurately, right?
Wrong! Until we know the context in which her statement was made, there is every possibility we will completely misunderstand and misapply what she said. For example, if the woman made this statement in the context of an angry encounter with her husband during a bitter divorce, then her statement can fairly be interpreted as an absolute command that her husband should never again touch her under any circumstances. On the other hand, if she made the statement when she was happily married, but lying in bed sick with a fever and her skin was prickly, her statement has a radically different meaning.
This simple example reminds us of a very important principle: If we want to interpret spoken or written statements accurately, we must carefully study the context in which the statement were made. Otherwise, we can completely misunderstand what was intended.
Theologians of all stripes (including the most fundamentalist) have long followed this rule when interpreting statements found in the bible. As Jeff's fundamentalist baptist preachers and professors used to say over and over again, "A text taken out of context is a pretext".
We are used to applying this principle in many biblical settings. For example, in 1Corinthians chapter 11, the apostle Paul says women should wear a veil when praying. He also says they should have long hair. Here are two rather simple, straightforward rules announced in the NT. How should we interpret them?
Some christians have tried to interpret them without any reference to the cultural context in which the apostle Paul spoke. So, they require their women to wear hats in church (a modern type of veil) and require them to maintain hair that is shoulder length or longer.
But others who have studied the cultural context of this passage tell us that in Paul's time, only prostitutes wore short hair and appeared in public unveiled. If this is true, then the likely meaning of Paul's ruling changes radically from an absolute command to one that was meant to address a problem unique to the culture of the time - women who wore short hair or appeared in unveiled in public could easily be mistaken for prostitutes. Today, even most conservative christians do not require their women to wear head coverings or to keep their hair long. They take this position even though the words of the bible specifically say women should do so. They refrain from imposing these requirements because they understand that the meaning of words is determined largely by the context in which they are are spoken. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7000
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Sorry I didn't respond to your remark about Sodom and Gomorrah I didn't consider it of particular import, but since you insist...
| Quote: | | Does not the text imply that God had to send two angels to the city to see if what "he" heard was actually true? |
The text in no way indicates that God HAD to do anything. It states what He did, and how He did it. It does not indicate or imply His reasoning for choosing to do it the way He did it:
Gen 18:1 NOW THE Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks or terebinths of Mamre; as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day,
Gen 18:2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood at a little distance from him. He ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the ground ...
Gen 18:16 The men rose up from there and faced toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
Gen 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham [My friend and servant] what I am going to do, [Gal. 3:8.]
Gen 18:18 Since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed through him and shall bless themselves by him? [Gen. 12:2-3.]
Gen 18:19 For I have known (chosen, acknowledged) him [as My own], so that he may teach and command his children and the sons of his house after him to keep the way of the Lord and to do what is just and righteous, so that the Lord may bring Abraham what He has promised him.
Gen 18:20 And the Lord said, Because the shriek [of the sins] of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is exceedingly grievous,
Gen 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether [as vilely and wickedly] as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | quote="RevJP"-
Gen 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether [as vilely and wickedly] as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know. |
Please elaborate. Thanks. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6362
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Exd 33:5 For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye [are] a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
The children of Sodom were being afflicted by sins and evils which had come upon them by their own actions. When things became out of control, they began to cry unto the Lord for deliverance. That they were being unjustly punished for their own sins.
The Lord came down to see if what they cried was true or false. Not that he didn't know that they were afflicted but whether there were any that would follow him....out of Sodom...
Take up your cross and follow me.
Lot was the only one who followed. He was the one seed which had faith.
And the Lord came down and judged them, and took out the only seed which had been lost in that city.
It wasn't to see if they were evil, but rather with what judgement he would judge them with.
I can hear the Lord speaking about Sodom and Gomorah in these verses, even though they are directed at Israel they hold the same truth...
For there is one law for the goose and the gander.
Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.
I can see the similarities of the angels standing in the streets of Sodom.
Jer 5:1 ¶ Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be [any] that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.
Jer 5:2 And though they say, The LORD liveth; surely they swear falsely.
Jer 5:3 O LORD, [are] not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, [but] they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.
Jer 5:4 ¶ Therefore I said, Surely these [are] poor; they are foolish: for they know not the way of the LORD, [nor] the judgment of their God.
Jer 5:5 I will get me unto the great men, and will speak unto them; for they have known the way of the LORD, [and] the judgment of their God: but these have altogether broken the yoke, [and] burst the bonds.
Jer 5:6 Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, [and] a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, [and] their backslidings are increased.
Jer 5:7 ¶ How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by [them that are] no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.
Jer 5:8 They were [as] fed horses in the morning: every one neighed after his neighbour's wife.
Jer 5:9 Shall I not visit for these [things]? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
Jer 5:10 ¶ Go ye up upon her walls, and destroy; but make not a full end: take away her battlements; for they [are] not the LORD'S.
Jer 5:11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
Jer 5:12 They have belied the LORD, and said, [It is] not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine:
Jer 5:13 And the prophets shall become wind, and the word [is] not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
Jer 5:14 ¶ Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
Jer 5:15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it [is] a mighty nation, it [is] an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.
Jer 5:16 Their quiver [is] as an open sepulchre, they [are] all mighty men.
Jer 5:17 And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, [which] thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword.
Jer 5:18 ¶ Nevertheless in those days, saith the LORD, I will not make a full end with you.
Jer 5:19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these [things] unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land [that is] not yours.
Jer 5:20 ¶ Declare this in the house of Jacob, and publish it in Judah, saying,
Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
Jer 5:22 Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand [for] the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?
Jer 5:23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.
Jer 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
Jer 5:25 Your iniquities have turned away these [things], and your sins have withholden good [things] from you.
Jer 5:26 For among my people are found wicked [men]: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
Jer 5:27 As a cage is full of birds, so [are] their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
Jer 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
Jer 5:29 Shall I not visit for these [things]? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
Jer 5:30 ¶ A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
Gen 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein?
Gen 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for [lack of] five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy [it].
Gen 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do [it] for forty's sake.
Gen 18:30 And he said [unto him], Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do [it], if I find thirty there.
Gen 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for twenty's sake.
Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
You know what's interesting..The Lord says that we should forgive seven times...
Abraham asked 6 times to pardon them. I wonder if Abraham had said,
Lord peradventure there be one righteous........
Nevertheless, the Lord spared that one.
that's how I see it summertime..
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6269
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Nerina wrote: | | I wonder what the pro-homosexual group here think of Jesus Himself upholding heterosexual marriage alone in Mark 10? |
Heh.
10:13 Now people were bringing little children to him for him to touch, but the disciples scolded those who brought them.
10:14 But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
10:15 I tell you the truth, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.”
10:16 After he took the children in his arms, he placed his hands on them and blessed them.
I know that this is only hilarious out of context, but boy is it.
Anyway, the only part of Mark 10 you could be referring to reasonably is 10:1-12, which is purely about divorce between heterosexual couples. So it hardly seems applicable, does it?
| Nerina wrote: | | No mention there of a lawful alternative of homosexual relationships. |
But no mention that homosexual relationships are unlawful, so basically you have zero ground to stand on here. At the very least, applying Mark 10 is nonsensical regardless.
| Nerina wrote: | | Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. |
If nothing else, this exposes you as a fundie hatemonger lying for Jesus. Sorry.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | quote="lone-traveler"-Exd 33:5 For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye [are] a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, [b]that I may know what to do unto thee.
The children of Sodom were being afflicted by sins and evils which had come upon them by their own actions. When things became out of control, they began to cry unto the Lord for deliverance. That they were being unjustly punished for their own sins. |
Where in the bible does it explain that the cries refer to Sodom's feelings of being unjustly punished?
| Quote: | | The Lord came down to see if what they cried was true or false. |
Why would the Lord have to come down to see IF what they cried was true or false? Wouldn't the Lord already know that information before coming down since God is, I believe anyway, all knowing?
| Quote: | | Not that he didn't know that they were afflicted but whether there were any that would follow him....out of Sodom... |
I would think that an all knowing God would already know ahead of time if there were any that would follow "him".
| Quote: | | It wasn't to see if they were evil, but rather with what judgement he would judge them with. |
My answer is the same in regards to this:)
| Quote: | Gen 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein?
Gen 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for [lack of] five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy [it].
Gen 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do [it] for forty's sake.
Gen 18:30 And he said [unto him], Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do [it], if I find thirty there.
Gen 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for twenty's sake.
Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
You know what's interesting..The Lord says that we should forgive seven times... |
Where does the bible say that the Lord said that? I'm thinking that's not literal if it was said. Seventy times seven comes to mind right now. But I doubt that it's meant only to forgive 490 times and then after that one doesn't have to forgive anymore.
| Quote: | | that's how I see it summertime.. |
I appreciate you sharing. Thanks. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6362
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Hi summertime:
| Quote: | | Where in the bible does it explain that the cries refer to Sodom's feelings of being unjustly punished? |
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Thankyou for having me look deeper into the matter summertime.
It appears as though Sodom and Gomorrah itself is crying. The land is full of bloodshed and sin, and the land is crying out to God.
So because the inhabitants of the land is poluting her, the land itself bears the sins of those who live within.
| Quote: | | Why would the Lord have to come down to see IF what they cried was true or false? Wouldn't the Lord already know that before coming down since God is, I believe anyway, all knowing? |
The Lord also knew he'd be paying a visit to Abraham, So maybe it was for Abrahams benefit that he told him what he was about to do. To see what Abraham's response would be.
God knows the hearts of men, but with the tongue one justifies or condems oneself. Maybe he was testing Abraham to see what he would say.
Abraham pleaded for them. For she loved much and was forgiven much. So Abraham showed compassion for them. Abraham was going to inherit that land, maybe God wanted to hear how Abraham would judge it.
| Quote: | | I would think that an all knowing God would already know if there were any that would follow "him". |
I suppose that depends on if you believe that we have free choice to follow or not. I believe each individual has been given the right to choose for himself....
| Quote: | | Where does the bible say the Lord say that? I'm thinking that's not literal if it was said. Seventy times seven comes to mind right now. |
I was thinking:
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
and here:
Gen 4:11 And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
So I suppose it depends on if you believe that the earth is a living breathing entity and has the ability to cry out in it's distress, and God hears the earth groan and travail in pain.
The bible says it was Sodom and Gomorah which cried out because of their sins.....
Can the land sin?
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Jer 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.
Psa 24:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psa 89:11 The heavens [are] thine, the earth also [is] thine: [as for] the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
Psa 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
1Cr 10:26 For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
1Cr 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
learning new things everyday!!
Awesome.
Thankyou summertime
God Bless
Lone
lots to think about
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Nerina
Sea Monkey
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 10
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Nerina wrote: | | ]Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. |
If nothing else, this exposes you as a fundie hatemonger lying for Jesus. Sorry. |
I don't mind being called a fundie because I hold to the fundamental truths of Christianity; I am not a hatemonger and I'm not lying. I stand by what I've said because Jesus is glorified by the changes within me and others to which we can testify - the power of God in action which infuriates the unsaved. If that doesn't fit your agenda, then it's not my problem. I feel very sorry for you; I pray that one day you come to faith in Jesus and are born again. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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quote="lone-traveler"-
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Why would the Lord have to come down to see IF what they cried was true or false? Wouldn't the Lord already know that before coming down since God is, I believe anyway, all knowing? |
The Lord also knew he'd be paying a visit to Abraham, So maybe it was for Abrahams benefit that he told him what he was about to do. To see what Abraham's response would be.
God knows the hearts of men, but with the tongue one justifies or condems oneself. Maybe he was testing Abraham to see what he would say. Abraham pleaded for them. For she loved much and was forgiven much. So Abraham showed compassion for them. Abraham was going to inherit that land, maybe God wanted to hear how Abraham would judge it. |
I'd say that was possible. Thanks.
| Quote: | I would think that an all knowing God would already know if there were any that would follow "him".
I suppose that depends on if you believe that we have free choice to follow or not. I believe each individual has been given the right to choose for himself.... |
I understand free will and all that, but I don't see what that has to do with God alreading knowing if someone would follow "him" (smile).
| Quote: | | lots to think about |
Indeed. I think there always is:) It's been a pleasure. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6269
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Nerina wrote: | | Oh and before I'm condemned as a fundie hatemonger, I am a former bisexual set free by Jesus. I was convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit, I repented and turned away from it, and was cleansed and healed. What God did for me, He has done, can and will do for others. |
Since you're making a big deal out of it:
How come it didn't work for Haggard?
Do you, too, convince yourself that you've cleansed yourself of "sin" only to return to it a few months or years later? Then just convince yourself that you weren't trying hard enough?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7000
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How come it didn't work for Haggard? |
How could she possibly know? Is she Haggard?
Come on FFT, quit trolling.
| Quote: |
Do you, too, convince yourself that you've cleansed yourself of "sin" only to return to it a few months or years later? Then just convince yourself that you weren't trying hard enough? |
Do you enjoy being an ass? What is it about someone's faith that bothers you so?
I can understand that you have no faith, I can understand that you think it is silly for someone else to have faith because it doesn't fit in your perspective of things. But why are you so vehement in belittling and demeaning those who do have faith? What is so threatening to you about a person trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | What is so threatening to you about a person trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives? |
Suicide bombers, human sacrifices, witch burnings, and any number of other atrocities that are commited because of overzealousness all come to mind.
I don't thing FFT's point was about hating faith, though - I think it was about how no matter how much faith you have, it isn't necessarily enough to overcome the instincts hardwired into your brain, and also that it's hypocritical for Haggard to condemn others for failing to overcome these instincts when he himself couldn't do it...
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6269
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | How could she possibly know? Is she Haggard? |
It's a very reasonable logical consequence. | Nerina wrote: | | What God did for me, He has done, can and will do for others. |
| FFT wrote: | | How come it didn't work for Haggard? |
She's saying God can and does "fix" people, but somehow this big-time preacher got ignored? If anything, Haggard is a perfect example of the failures of the fundamentalist reactions to homosexuality.
| RevJP wrote: | | Do you enjoy being an ass? What is it about someone's faith that bothers you so? |
Interestingly, I didn't say anything about having a problem with her faith. Why are you referring to it at all?
| RevJP wrote: | | I can understand that you have no faith, I can understand that you think it is silly for someone else to have faith because it doesn't fit in your perspective of things. |
No, and I've never claimed this. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to have faith. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that everything is colored in a shade of red if you don't realize you've had red contacts over your eyes your whole life. My problem with Nerina here is that she has this demonstrably false idea about "curing" homosexuality through faith — something the Bible does not appear to actually have a stance on (yes, I know you believe the Bible has a stance on homosexual relationships, but it does not have a stance on "curing" homosexuality through anything but complete abstinence to my knowledge — which is not a cure, as the desires remain and are simply not fulfilled).
| RevJP wrote: | | But why are you so vehement in belittling and demeaning those who do have faith? What is so threatening to you about a person trusting in something that you don't believe in which has made positive changes in their lives? |
I don't care about Nerina's faith, she's welcome to it. Her ideas are dangerous in that, when put into effect, they destroy lives. Haggard is a perfect example of this. Because he believed his natural desires were sinful, he went through all that trouble. He'd convince himself he was okay, only to go right back to what his body was telling him to do. And not only that, but this reinforced his belief that homosexuality was sinful, because his only recourse was abnormal relationship(s?).
Why are you so quick to throw in the red herring that I have some issue with her faith? That was never the point of my argument. Nerina pointed out Mark 10, and the only thing referring to heterosexual marriage was a bit on divorce. Further, her own words revealed her bias and, most likely, falsehood. You can't "cure" gay.
Besides, the Bible doesn't even say anything about women having sex with each other so who knows where she got the idea that it was sinful.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7000
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Why are you so quick to throw in the red herring that I have some issue with her faith? |
It's a very reasonable logical consequence.
| Ana wrote: |
Suicide bombers, human sacrifices, witch burnings, and any number of other atrocities that are commited because of overzealousness all come to mind. |
Who said anything about overzealousness? Does faith equate to that in your mind?
| Quote: | | also that it's hypocritical for Haggard to condemn others for failing to overcome these instincts when he himself couldn't do it... |
cite examples please.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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